Not looking good for Trump, or Biden, or DIYMA...

How the Left-Right Political Spectrum Decieves Us
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Observe most political debates and you'll see people arguing based on how far to the "left," or the "right," they are. This left-right spectrum is uncritically applied as a basis for classifying types of governments and political ideologies - it has become the only popular framework that we have for evaluating politics. Seems harmless enough, right?

Except that the left-right spectrum is really a false dichotomy that renders the positions of both "sides," contradictory, while helping to control public debate. There are serious problems with the left-right spectrum as framework for understanding politics. ​A critical look reveals that the spectrum is incomplete, incoherent, leads to unnecessary polarization, and reinforces belief in hierarchy.

We need to confront the fact that the positions of both "sides," are riddled with contradictions. On this extremely flawed basis, people attack the so-called other side as though politics were some kind of team sport. In order to end such narrow and destructive partisanism, let's start thinking about whether the left-right spectrum is accurate rather than just assuming it is. (Hint: it's not, as we will see).
​

What's Wrong With the Left-Right Political Spectrum?

Designating political ideologies as left or right arose historically based on the seating arrangements of Royalist and Anti-royalist factions in the Assembly during the French Revolution.[1] The left-right spectrum solidified in the 19th Century with the emergence of Marxism. The splitting of politics into left versus right is now a mature dialectic, (thesis and antithesis) so ingrained in many people's minds, that it is more or less assumed to be true.

The typical left-right spectrum consists of Marxism/authoritarian communism on the far left, and fascism on the far right, with liberal democracy in the middle. Every other position is reduced to a more moderate form of the aforementioned extremes along the continuum. No matter where a political ideology falls on this scale, a strong centralized government, whether left, right, or centrist, is presumed. There are no other options, and there is no place for more decentralized forms of government such as a limited constitutional republic, tribal government, direct democracy, or anarchy (no government).

​So the problem here is that the scale and vastly incomplete. It's a false dichotomy. It presupposes that there necessarily must be some form of hierarchical government. You are either authoritarian left, authoritarian right, or authoritarian centrist, which neatly reinforces belief in hierarchy in the first place.

​In this brilliant piece, philosopher Crispin Sartwell lays it out more eloquently than I have:

This spectrum stretches from authoritarianism on the one end to authoritarianism on the other, with authoritarianism in between. It makes anything that is not that incomprehensible...The arrangement of positions along the left-right axis—progressive to reactionary, or conservative to liberal, communist to fascist, socialist to capitalist, or Democrat to Republican—is conceptually confused, ideologically tendentious, and historically contingent. And any position anywhere along it is infested by contradictions. [2]
​
Contradictory Positions

One source of contradiction is that historically, the left-right political spectrum has pitted the state against the corporation or capital. However this distinction never made any sense to me, and it makes even less sense now when you consider countries like modern China in which the state encourages rabid capital growth, as Sartwell points out.

Moreover, the extreme left (authoritarian communism) and right (fascism) actually both consist of total state control (authoritarianism). The only difference between the poles is that with communism, the state is the corporation, and with fascism, the corporation is the state.

The extreme left and right, despite being polar opposites, actually have a lot more in common with each other than they do with a limited constitutional republic, (America at the time of founding for example).

Sartwell explains this problem brilliantly, noting that all hierarchies tend to coincide:

The basic set of distinctions on both sides rests on the idea that state and corporation, or political and economic power, can be pulled apart and set against each other. This is, I propose, obviously false, because hierarchies tend to coincide. Let's call that PHC, or Principle of Hierarchical Coincidence. A corollary of PHC is that resources flow toward political power, and political power flows toward resources; or, the power of state and of capital typically appear in conjunction and are mutually reinforcing.

What this means in layman's terms is that like tends to attract like, power tends to attract more power rather than eschewing it. Instead of the state acting as a check or a balance to corporate power, it actually tends to strengthen it. The corporation also strengthens the power of the state, without which, monopoly and corporate growth on the scale we typically witness would not be possible.

The left-right spectrum produces all kinds of other practical inconsistencies and contradictions as well. What causes and principles the so-called left and right seem to support constantly change from year to year and decade to decade. As Sartwell notes, it's historically contingent. It's often quite hard to define what a progressive (left) or a conservative (right) even is, except using a very broad and shifting definition. The problem is with the arbitrary nature of the spectrum itself. Sartwell notes:

It's never a matter of simply starting afresh, employing no assumptions; both sides are engaged in interpreting and re-applying existing traditions, and both sides are doing that under constantly mutating conditions, so that each reapplication is a new and potentially controversial interpretation.

To show how muddled things get along the left-right spectrum, consider the libertarian position, which doesn't really fit at all. Proponents of libertarianism tend to be economically very far to the "right," but socially "left," often being in favor of peace, legalizing drugs, prison reform, and other causes historically associated with the far left.

Some polls may indicate that the majority of Americans actually tend to be both economically conservative yet socially liberal. Yet as Sartwell notes, such a position, even if it's the majority position, doesn't make a whole lot of sense using the left-right spectrum. Consider:

The left pole, meanwhile, could be a stateless society of barter and localism; or a world of equality in which people are not subordinated by race, gender, and sexuality; or a pervasive welfare state; or a Khmer Rouge reeducation regime. The Nazi Party, Catholic Church, hereditary aristocracy, Ayn Rand capitalists, and redneck gun enthusiasts are all on the same side of the left-right spectrum. So are hacktivists, food-stamp officials, anti-globalization activists, anarcho-primitivists, and advocates of a world government. It would be hard to come up with a less coherent or less useful way of thinking about politics.


Alternative Spectrums

​There are probably many alternative spectrums that could replace what we have; Sartwell notes that the current spectrum:

Narrows all alternatives to variations on hierarchy, structures of inequality, or profoundly unjust distributions of power and wealth. There are alternatives, and the one I would suggest is this: We should arrange political positions according to whether they propose to increase hierarchy or to dismantle it.

So an alternative political spectrum, Sartwell notes, could be based on how much various systems tend to control people, or conversely, how much they propose to dismantle hierarchies of power and wealth. What this would look like is a vertical scale with the most hierarchical or authoritarian systems (whether political or economic) at the top, down to the least hierarchical, self-governing and decentralized at the bottom.

At the top of the scale would be authoritarian communism, fascism, absolute monarchy, caesarism, and so forth. Next would come socialism and progressivism. Limited constitutional republics, Classical liberalism, and libertariansim would be further towards the bottom, anti-authoritarian end. Finally direct democracy, tribalism, self-government, and all forms of anarchy (collectivist, syndicalist, market, etc.) would all be together at the very bottom of the anti-authoritarian scale.

A vertical, hierarchy-based political spectrum, is a much more complete and useful tool for evaluating political ideologies because it can actually include all positions, both political and economic, based on how hierarchical they are, not on some arbitrary definition of left versus right.


Polarization and Control of Debate

​While the left-right spectrum obviously isn't the only factor which produces narrow partisanism, narrow partisanism naturally results from the inherent polarization of the left-right spectrum.

The spectrum itself, as a preexisting framework which isn't complete, limits critical thinking and prevents individuals from evaluating political ideas based on a more complete framework. Rather, ideas are evaluated from a knee-jerk perspective based on how well they fit into the individual's predetermined belief structure within the false left-right paradigm.

It's rare to meet someone not operating from a knee-jerk perspective quite frankly. Often there is the unstated assumption that if my "side," of the spectrum or my political party is doing it, then it must be ok, instead of acknowledgement that both sides (left and right) are often at fault, and that both sides tend to want more and more control over people.

When you think about it, the left-right political spectrum is quite an excellent tool for controlling public debate through an obviously false dichotomy, and also for reinforcing belief in hierarchies.

Certainly some people will naturally favor hierarchies, but that they are good or bad shouldn't be the default assumption; just that hierarchies exist and that at the very least, we should be thinking more critically about them. The left-right political spectrum has us fighting with each other, rather than questioning whether hierarchies themselves aren't a large part of the problems facing humanity.

For us to begin having more objective political discourse, it is important to evaluate ideologies in a more all-encompassing way. The left-right spectrum is a trap for the mind. It creates false dichotomy, contradiction, and unnecessary polarization. We are doomed to continue fighting each other, and learning nothing new, if we remain dependent on this hopelessly flawed political framework.

https://www.commonsenseethics.com/blog/why-the-left-right-political-spectrum-is-nonsense

 
DavidRam said:
If you are extending your hand to shake on that bet, then let's do it, I'm in. I'll take the 4 day grace period, too (though I don't need it). Why you would want me off of this forum so bad is weird, but hey, no skin off my back, I'll take your bet just as you worded it. :)

What you will begin to understand over the next few weeks, is that the military was anticipating the fraud well before the election and was monitoring and recording ALL OF IT in real time. There were EOs and extensive plans already in place to deal with this in a manner consistent will law and order and the Constitution.
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Two-and-a-half months later, I'm wondering if your views on any of ^this^ have substantially changed.
 
DavidRam said:
If you are extending your hand to shake on that bet, then let's do it, I'm in. I'll take the 4 day grace period, too (though I don't need it). Why you would want me off of this forum so bad is weird, but hey, no skin off my back, I'll take your bet just as you worded it. :)

What you will begin to understand over the next few weeks, is that the military was anticipating the fraud well before the election and was monitoring and recording ALL OF IT in real time. There were EOs and extensive plans already in place to deal with this in a manner consistent will law and order and the Constitution.
Click to expand...
With just five weeks to go, David, what is your current take on all of this? I'm once again asking out of genuine curiosity and concern, not at all with the intent to be a sarcastic dick.

For what it's worth, I think it was an unfortunate bet between you and Euphonic, and I appeal to the both of you to rescind it. No matter the outcome, everyone loses that bet.

Foreign entities, multinational corporations, politicians, bureaucrats, appointed officials, corporate MSM, Big Tech, etc. are hell-bent on achieving totalitarian power and destroying our constitutional republic; and by fighting amongst ourselves we are helping them tear our country apart. What we all need now more than ever is to drop all of the petty, condescending, divisive bullshit and recognize our common interests.
 
Grinder said:
With just five weeks to go, David, what is your current take on all of this? I'm once again asking out of genuine curiosity and concern, not at all with the intent to be a sarcastic dick.

For what it's worth, I think it was an unfortunate bet between you and Euphonic, and I appeal to the both of you to rescind it. No matter the outcome, everyone loses that bet.

Foreign entities, multinational corporations, politicians, bureaucrats, appointed officials, corporate MSM, Big Tech, etc. are hell-bent on achieving totalitarian power and destroying our constitutional republic; and by fighting amongst ourselves we are helping them tear our country apart. What we all need now more than ever is to drop all of the petty, condescending, divisive bullshit and recognize our common interests.
Click to expand...

I would not hold anyone to anything. At the time of the bet, I said:
Euphonic said:
It's a lose-lose bet, but if it's the one you want, so be it. I guess I'll take a hiatus until the results.
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and the reply I got was:
DavidRam said:
Actually, if I win, it's a win-win for everyone... That is unless there is still someone clueless enough to think that "Biden" has done anything good for this country in the last 7 months...
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to which I replied:
Euphonic said:
It's a loss for the forum. I already posted what the Constitution basically says. If it's deemed a fraud, there would be a new election. For some reason, you'd rather Trump get reinstated, lose a year (already lost), and then not be eligible to run in 2024. Unless you think this is going to be a coup and the government will become some kind of Trump monarchy. If that's the case, I question your patriotism.
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Which is still my current stance on the bet. I feel bad if he has as many monetary bets on the subject as he claims. Someone might want to set up a GoFundMe or something for him come January.
 
Euphonic said:
I would not hold anyone to anything. At the time of the bet, I said: and the reply I got was: to which I replied:


Which is still my current stance on the bet. I feel bad if he has as many monetary bets on the subject as he claims. Someone might want to set up a GoFundMe or something for him come January.
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Fair enough...




From my perspective, David was poking fun here:
DavidRam said:
The only reason not to bet would be the fear of loosing...




That is NOT the way it works in the event of fraud. The rightful winner is awarded the win, plain and simple. I have no idea why you don't want to entertain that possibility, if you actually believe Trump would be better for this country than the globalist, communist pedophiles currently pretending to be in power.
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...and then it was you who threw down the gauntlet and proposed that particular bet, which he accepted (what did you expect?):
Euphonic said:
The text of the Constitution pretty much says an election is legitimate when the Electoral College says it is. It doesn’t lay out a process for do-overs. Occasionally, courts have ordered new elections for offices, other than the presidency, after a proven case of fraud or error. I’ve yet to find anything that says “the loser becomes the rightful winner”.




If a bet means that much to you, how about if Trump isn’t sworn in as President by January 4th, 2022 you leave the forum. If he is, I leave. I’ve put lots of time and effort into parts of this forum and I’m confident enough that I won’t be leaving.
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...and then (and now) you seem to imply that it's the bet he wanted:
Euphonic said:
It's a lose-lose bet, but if it's the one you want, so be it. I guess I'll take a hiatus until the results.
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...and I agree with David that it seems kinda weird that you proposed that particular bet:
DavidRam said:
If you are extending your hand to shake on that bet, then let's do it, I'm in. I'll take the 4 day grace period, too (though I don't need it). Why you would want me off of this forum so bad is weird, but hey, no skin off my back, I'll take your bet just as you worded it.




What you will begin to understand over the next few weeks, is that the military was anticipating the fraud well before the election and was monitoring and recording ALL OF IT in real time. There were EOs and extensive plans already in place to deal with this in a manner consistent will law and order and the Constitution.
Click to expand...


...which is why I reached out to both of you with this:
Grinder said:
With just five weeks to go, David, what is your current take on all of this? I'm once again asking out of genuine curiosity and concern, not at all with the intent to be a sarcastic dick.


For what it's worth, I think it was an unfortunate bet between you and Euphonic, and I appeal to the both of you to rescind it. No matter the outcome, everyone loses that bet.


Foreign entities, multinational corporations, politicians, bureaucrats, appointed officials, corporate MSM, Big Tech, etc. are hell-bent on achieving totalitarian power and destroying our constitutional republic; and by fighting amongst ourselves we are helping them tear our country apart. What we all need now more than ever is to drop all of the petty, condescending, divisive bullshit and recognize our common interests.
Click to expand...

I'm not picking sides here, just doing my part to help rectify a silly bet and prevent a lose/lose outcome. :)
 
Grinder said:
...and then it was you who threw down the gauntlet and proposed that particular bet, which he accepted (what did you expect?)
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For him to be an adult and say "no, that's a stupid bet"

Grinder said:
...and then (and now) you seem to imply that it's the bet he wanted
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Because he could have said "no, that's a stupid bet"

Grinder said:
...and I agree with David that it seems kinda weird that you proposed that particular bet
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Wasn't the bet I was originally going to ask for, but the other seemed harsh and also wasn't monetary. Even if they were monetary bets, I could have asked for $50k and he would have taken the bet. Do you think he'd actually pay?
 
Euphonic said:
For him to be an adult and say "no, that's a stupid bet"



Because he could have said "no, that's a stupid bet"



Wasn't the bet I was originally going to ask for, but the other seemed harsh and also wasn't monetary. Even if they were monetary bets, I could have asked for $50k and he would have taken the bet. Do you think he'd actually pay?
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You expected him to say "no" to the "stupid" bet, and "yes" to the $50k bet. I'm not sure I follow your logic.

I would have been surprised if he hadn't accepted the "stupid" bet, because it seemed to me that he truly believed that whole Q white-hat military narrative. I would have been very surprised if he had taken the $50k bet though, because nobody could be $50k sure about a future event, and nobody would ever believe the other person wouldn't automatically welch - making it a pointless bet. My impression of David is that he is an honorable person, and that is my impression of you as well. I have no way of knowing, of course, but I'd like to think that David would pay whatever amount he agreed to pay.
 
Grinder said:
You expected him to say "no" to the "stupid" bet, and "yes" to the $50k bet. I'm not sure I follow your logic.
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The terms of the bet were irrelevant. It could of been the moon, he was still taking the bet because he felt (and may still feel) like it's a bet he couldn't (can't) lose because he was (is) right. I could have suggested that we bet left thumbs and he still would have said yes. Would I have expected him to mail me his thumb? Absolutely not. I wouldn't have expected a $50k transfer, I don't expect him or want him to leave the forum, and I don't expect him to admit he was wrong on January 5th.

Grinder said:
I have no way of knowing, of course, but I'd like to think that David would pay whatever amount he agreed to pay.
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I don't know, ask him.

DavidRam said:
I have some ongoing bets on whether or not Trump is the legitimate president and that he WILL be recognized as such soon (within the calendar year 2021). You are welcome to get on that bet if you'd like. :)
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When does he need to start paying?
 
Euphonic said:
The terms of the bet were irrelevant. It could of been the moon, he was still taking the bet because he felt (and may still feel) like it's a bet he couldn't (can't) lose because he was (is) right. I could have suggested that we bet left thumbs and he still would have said yes. Would I have expected him to mail me his thumb? Absolutely not. I wouldn't have expected a $50k transfer, I don't expect him or want him to leave the forum, and I don't expect him to admit he was wrong on January 5th.
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You've made a number of assumptions about what David would and wouldn't do...


Euphonic said:
I don't know, ask him. ....
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You keep saying he wouldn't pay, and now you don't know...

You claim to not want David off the forum, yet your "stupid" bet proposed just that. I'm not a mind-reader, I can only guess your intent based on your words. I'll take you at your word that that's not what you wanted. You might have been more explicit on that.

I've said all I have to say on this. I was only trying to help, but I shouldn't have stuck my nose in this to begin with.
 
Somebody…anybody…

Am I the only person confused by this exchange? I guess maybe this will clear it up:

Grinder said:
You've made a number of assumptions about what David would and wouldn't do...
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No, I’m saying I don’t give a shit what he does.

You keep saying he wouldn't pay, and now you don't know...
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I’m saying I don’t care who or if he pays.

You claim to not want David off the forum, yet your "stupid" bet proposed just that. I'm not a mind-reader, I can only guess your intent based on your words. I'll take you at your word that that's not what you wanted. You might have been more explicit on that.
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I don’t care about the bet. Is any of this clear yet? For someone who claims not to have picked a side, you act like you have a lot invested…

I've said all I have to say on this. I was only trying to help, but I shouldn't have stuck my nose in this to begin with.
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Cool…
 
No, I’m confused as to why you’re trying to pick a fight about this childish shit after several months.
 
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