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Thread: Tuning Help

  1. Back To Top    #11
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning Help

    Possibly. It could be a polarity issue, it could be a time issue, it could be some other issue.

    I would check the following in order

    1) The polarity are all wired the same and the dsp settings are all the same
    2) the time alignment settings are correct for each
    3) You have followed a house curve and have 24db/oct slopes on the mids and the subs at the same frequency. (it doesn't appear this is followed very well yet)

    If all of those are correct and you still have that phase issue I would then try the following

    1) Depending on the dsp, you could do input FR viewing and see what is happening on the input side of things. May be a factory all pass filter in place.
    2) Try flipping polarity of one driver at a time and seeing if it improves
    3) try changing time alignment ever so slightly (dangerous game here without being able to measure phase)
    4) Try adding an all pass filter on one of the drivers at 230hz and see what happens there.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  2. Back To Top    #12
    Noob Cathul's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning Help

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefgeek View Post
    I have only tuned 1 other time a few years ago and it has taken me a week to get to a point where I feel like I can kinda tune something.

    I have the following response curve with target curve. I intentionally tuned bass with only 1 channel enabled so I could get a stronger signal iiin the end.
    Attachment 17821

    Most music still feels like it is missing bass and I have to admit, I have no clue what I am doing. Could it be the sub enclosure is just garbage, not sure what to expect.

    System details if it matters: Alpine SWS12D2 (Punch 60), Focal TA-246 Tweeters, NVX XSP65 (SB Aoustics SB17MFC35-4) powered by Alpine PDX-F4 Mosconi 6to8 v1.

    If it helps to see any of my progress here are my response files.
    In addition to what jdunk54nl said... what car is it? Stock headunit? Input to your aftermarket system from the original soundsystem or low-level?
    Some people may already know if there is a factory allpass filter set if they know the car and stock soundsystem.
    SYNC3 headunit
    Mosconi Pico 8/10 DSP
    Mosconi D2 500.1
    Gladen Zero Pro 165.3 DC
    JL Audio 10w3v3 in custom enclosure (Blueprint by Mark @Caraudiofabrication)

  3. Back To Top    #13

    Re: Tuning Help

    Vehicle: 2013 Jetta Sedan TDI
    Headunit: Kenwood DMX905 refurb

    I checked polarity with test tone and all show green.
    Re-measured driver distances and nothing wrong found.
    Checked crossovers and everything was on butterworh (WTF), changed to LR 24db
    I re-measured the system and while checking the right channel I noticed some strange cancelations around 100hz (mid/sub is set at 80hz) so I inverted the right mid and now see a big gain at 100hz.
    Measured both channels together and no more strange cancelations at 160/300 etc (I think)

    I have been trying to tune to a house curve, clearly I have been failing
    I think my tweets are still a little high but I have them set -9db in DSP
    I don't know how much of the irregularities in the response to attack.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by chiefgeek; 09-11-2022 at 06:20 PM. Reason: fixi typos

  4. Back To Top    #14
    Noob Cathul's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning Help

    Set a high shelf filter to bring the tweeters down a bit. My estimation would be a high shelf at ~7kHz with -2dB to start with.
    Same for a low shelf at the bass. low shelf at ~60Hz with -4 dB to start with.
    Remeasure afterwards and check if the response is better aligned to your target.
    SYNC3 headunit
    Mosconi Pico 8/10 DSP
    Mosconi D2 500.1
    Gladen Zero Pro 165.3 DC
    JL Audio 10w3v3 in custom enclosure (Blueprint by Mark @Caraudiofabrication)

  5. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Tuning Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Cathul View Post
    Set a high shelf filter to bring the tweeters down a bit. My estimation would be a high shelf at ~7kHz with -2dB to start with.
    Same for a low shelf at the bass. low shelf at ~60Hz with -4 dB to start with.
    Remeasure afterwards and check if the response is better aligned to your target.
    OMG, thanks so much for that response - I had no idea what a shelf filter was nor the fact that my DSP supports it!

    I can't wait to measure again and see how close to the target curve I can get now.

  6. Back To Top    #16
    Wave Shepherd - aka Jazzi Justin Zazzi's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning Help

    Shelf filters are amazing!

    Also, to help with what to focus your energy on, try using more smoothing. I see you're using 1/48th octave smoothing in the last chart you posted. Try using 1/3rd smoothing and you'll end up chasing your tail a lot less. When you get a good feel for how to make adjustments at that resolution (1/3rd-octave), and you can get the response to match your target, then you can try less smoothing like 1/6th-octave. Any more than 1/6th-octave is going to stress you out more than help, but higher resolution can be useful for chasing down really specific anomalies.

    For tonality, I use 1/3rd or 1/6th-octave only now. It's so much faster and so much less stress and it sounds great. I'll often squint my eyes a bit and look for the overall big trends and correct those instead of focusing on individual peaks and valleys. One way to enforce this concept is to use a parametric equalizer with a Q value between 0.5 and 1.5, but not greater than 1.5. You can also use up to one high shelf and up to one low shelf filter if you like, but not more than that. Then you won't be able to chase tiny wiggles anyways.

    Oh! It looks like you're using the RTA mode to capture the measurements. If that's the case, then use the highest resolution in the RTA mode (probabbly 1/48th-octave) then apply your smoothing in the main REW window. This way you can change to higher resolution if you want to later on to investigate stuff.
    Measure with mics, mark with chalk, cut with torch, grind to fit, sand to finish, paint to match.
    Updated Justin tuning sheet (Justin and Erica tuning companion for SMAART and REW)
    Do it for them.

  7. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Tuning Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Zazzi View Post
    Shelf filters are amazing!

    Also, to help with what to focus your energy on, try using more smoothing. I see you're using 1/48th octave smoothing in the last chart you posted. Try using 1/3rd smoothing and you'll end up chasing your tail a lot less. When you get a good feel for how to make adjustments at that resolution (1/3rd-octave), and you can get the response to match your target, then you can try less smoothing like 1/6th-octave. Any more than 1/6th-octave is going to stress you out more than help, but higher resolution can be useful for chasing down really specific anomalies.

    For tonality, I use 1/3rd or 1/6th-octave only now. It's so much faster and so much less stress and it sounds great. I'll often squint my eyes a bit and look for the overall big trends and correct those instead of focusing on individual peaks and valleys. One way to enforce this concept is to use a parametric equalizer with a Q value between 0.5 and 1.5, but not greater than 1.5. You can also use up to one high shelf and up to one low shelf filter if you like, but not more than that. Then you won't be able to chase tiny wiggles anyways.

    Oh! It looks like you're using the RTA mode to capture the measurements. If that's the case, then use the highest resolution in the RTA mode (probabbly 1/48th-octave) then apply your smoothing in the main REW window. This way you can change to higher resolution if you want to later on to investigate stuff.
    I will always have a look at 1/48 first and see if there’s any obvious big peaks or dips, make note and tackle if needs be, then swap to 1/3 octave and ignore any sections with big suckouts that looked ok at 1/48 octave aside from the dip, it makes more efficient use of limited tuning time if it’s a tune for someone else
    Last edited by dumdum; 09-16-2022 at 05:23 AM.

  8. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Tuning Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Zazzi View Post
    Shelf filters are amazing!

    Also, to help with what to focus your energy on, try using more smoothing. I see you're using 1/48th octave smoothing in the last chart you posted. Try using 1/3rd smoothing and you'll end up chasing your tail a lot less. When you get a good feel for how to make adjustments at that resolution (1/3rd-octave), and you can get the response to match your target, then you can try less smoothing like 1/6th-octave. Any more than 1/6th-octave is going to stress you out more than help, but higher resolution can be useful for chasing down really specific anomalies.

    For tonality, I use 1/3rd or 1/6th-octave only now. It's so much faster and so much less stress and it sounds great. I'll often squint my eyes a bit and look for the overall big trends and correct those instead of focusing on individual peaks and valleys. One way to enforce this concept is to use a parametric equalizer with a Q value between 0.5 and 1.5, but not greater than 1.5. You can also use up to one high shelf and up to one low shelf filter if you like, but not more than that. Then you won't be able to chase tiny wiggles anyways.

    Oh! It looks like you're using the RTA mode to capture the measurements. If that's the case, then use the highest resolution in the RTA mode (probabbly 1/48th-octave) then apply your smoothing in the main REW window. This way you can change to higher resolution if you want to later on to investigate stuff.
    I am using RTA mode to make measurements, I wasn't aware there was another way.

    When tuning, I am under the impression I should measure left, eq, then make the right match the left. This sounds simple but the only thing I have been able to kinda do is match to a target response. Are there any tricks for matching left/right response?

  9. Back To Top    #19
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning Help

    I use my microphone to set my levels (gain) on the amps to be as close as possible to the target curve first. Then fine tune using the gain on the dsp to get a good baseline for levels. Set Time alignment based on distance or use one of the built in time alignment tools depending on your dsp.

    Then I measure each speaker individually and adjust the crossovers and the eq to best match the target curve. I don't worry about matching spl levels at this point. The dsp settings only matter in that they get the driver to match the curve. Don't pay too much attention to what you are using, like butterworth, linkwitz, shelf, peq, etc. Use the tools that you have to get the acoustic (measured by microphone) curve to match the wanted curve. Like Justin, I limit the q that I am willing to use. I go up to a q of 5, but that is the highest. I do this based on Floyd Toole's Research that anything beyond a q of 5 is really really hard to hear.

    Then I measure each speaker post crossovers and eq to see if it matches my target curve and predicted response in REW. If so I am done with that driver's eq. If not, I fine tune on the spot with the RTA set to like 8 averages so it updates when I make a change.

    Once the driver matches the curve to my expectations, I then fine tune the levels of each drive to match each other and the curve.

    After all of that. I put away the microphone and computer and pull out test tracks of bandwith limited pink noise and songs that I really know and listen to what needs to change or needs adjusting (something pulling left/right, backwards, etc.) I don't make any changes at this point as my ears are probably dead but write them down so I know what I thougth. I usually do this for a like a week or so without making a bunch of changes but keep writing them down. If it still is an issue a week later, then I will make the changes. I do this so I make sure I am not changing something that is just a result of my ears being tired that day.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  10. Back To Top    #20
    Wave Shepherd - aka Jazzi Justin Zazzi's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning Help

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefgeek View Post
    I am using RTA mode to make measurements, I wasn't aware there was another way.

    When tuning, I am under the impression I should measure left, eq, then make the right match the left. This sounds simple but the only thing I have been able to kinda do is match to a target response. Are there any tricks for matching left/right response?
    There are many, MANY different ways to make a system sound good. I prefer to match all the speakers to a target because the target never changes, but that's just my preference.

    If you like to match the left and right together, it's the same process as trying to match to a target. I assume you're having trouble getting the left and right to mach eachother because one is not responding to your efforts and being a but more stubborn? I haven't tried this method, but my best guess is the car is a non-symmetrical environment so whatever abnormalities you have on the left channel might be difficult to reproduce with the right channel, because the right channel will have some unique abnormalities of it's own. If the left and the right fundamentally behave different because you are measuring from the driver's seat, then it might not be your fault.

    As an experiment, you could try putting the microphone in the center of the car like on the arm rest and then see if you can get the left woofer to match the right woofer any easier than before. This is one way to maybe confirm this total guess that I'm making right now.
    Measure with mics, mark with chalk, cut with torch, grind to fit, sand to finish, paint to match.
    Updated Justin tuning sheet (Justin and Erica tuning companion for SMAART and REW)
    Do it for them.

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