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Thread: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    REW can measure phase with sweeps like mentioned above. I just have always struggled to get useable results with it, and by the time I get it to where I can use it, I am out of time to actually do much with it. Then the whole process of make change, measure sweep, make change, measure sweep, repeat 100 more times for each driver, etc. takes FOREVER!

    Open sound meter or SMAART takes like 5 minutes to get it going and like 20 minutes to get basic phase aligning done. That could be it or you could need to spend some time flipping polarity and adjusting timing. So, there is really no point anymore to use REW for phase stuff with open sound meter and a basic setup of internal loopback and your umik1.
    Last edited by Jdunk54nl; 04-21-2021 at 10:04 AM.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  2. Back To Top    #22

    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    Yeah, I tried messing with REW sweeps when I went to integrate my new subwoofer - and honestly, I think that I can get better results, quicker, just by trial and error and listening to the bass level. :-) Plus, the timing chirps don't work well with subs. I just remember it being a huge pain in the arse...

    I thought that I needed an XLR mic to measure phase with Smaart/Open Sound Meter - I didn't realize that you could do that with a USB mic. I'll have to look into that. Although, at this point, just trial-and-error with time alignment, allpass filters and polarity flipping have got me to where I need to be.... Even the Helix ATM (automatic time alignment) didn't work well for me - would end up with huge dips in the bass response if I used the values it suggested. My time alignment values are "strange" looking, but it sounds great and the measurements looks good, so I'm happy.

    Will still check out that Open Sound Meter tool and how to get it working with a USB MIC though - i'm sure it will come in handy in the future.

    Here are the measurements that I took yesterday (didn't include subs though). Really happy with this setup right now. I'm constantly messing with the overall tonality of the system, trying to find that "sweet spot" that works well for most music. Originally, I was keeping the treble flat all of the way up to like 18khz, but I've since rolled it off starting at about 12khz and that seems to work really well for me. My "curve" is nothing like any predefined curves I've seen though - I like way more bass and treble - especially while actually driving down the road (as opposed to sitting in the car in my garage). :-) I have a trunk sub and an underseat sub - trunk sub plays from 10hz-55hz and the underseat sub plays from 55hz-80hz, where the midbass takes over. I also like a lot more midbass than most. Between the 6x9's I'm using in the doors, the underseat sub and the trunk sub, I get very "powerful" bass/mid-bass. Using 24dB LR acoustic slopes for everything (using whatever electrical xover type/slope works best for each speaker).

    Last edited by jtrosky; 04-21-2021 at 10:56 AM.

  3. Back To Top    #23

    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    Quote Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
    Yeah, I tried messing with REW sweeps when I went to integrate my new subwoofer - and honestly, I think that I can get better results, quicker, just by trial and error and listening to the bass level. :-) Plus, the timing chirps don't work well with subs. I just remember it being a huge pain in the arse...

    I thought that I needed an XLR mic to measure phase with Smaart/Open Sound Meter - I didn't realize that you could do that with a USB mic. I'll have to look into that. Although, at this point, just trial-and-error with time alignment, allpass filters and polarity flipping have got me to where I need to be.... Even the Helix ATM (automatic time alignment) didn't work well for me - would end up with huge dips in the bass response if I used the values it suggested. My time alignment values are "strange" looking, but it sounds great and the measurements looks good, so I'm happy.

    Will still check out that Open Sound Meter tool and how to get it working with a USB MIC though - i'm sure it will come in handy in the future.

    Here are the measurements that I took yesterday (didn't include subs though). Really happy with this setup right now. I'm constantly messing with the overall tonality of the system, trying to find that "sweet spot" that works well for most music. Originally, I was keeping the treble flat all of the way up to like 18khz, but I've since rolled it off starting at about 12khz and that seems to work really well for me. My "curve" is nothing like any predefined curves I've seen though - I like way more bass and treble - especially while actually driving down the road (as opposed to sitting in the car in my garage). :-) I have a trunk sub and an underseat sub - trunk sub plays from 10hz-55hz and the underseat sub plays from 55hz-80hz, where the midbass takes over. I also like a lot more midbass than most. Between the 6x9's I'm using in the doors, the underseat sub and the trunk sub, I get very "powerful" bass/mid-bass. Using 24dB LR acoustic slopes for everything (using whatever electrical xover type/slope works best for each speaker).

    Just a quick one... you will never play a timing chirp with a sub... you play the timing chirp from the same driver and everything is then referenced to that driver...

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    Just a quick one... you will never play a timing chirp with a sub... you play the timing chirp from the same driver and everything is then referenced to that driver...
    Which is a FUN task when you are tuning the right side and if your timing reference is the right midbass/midrange. Sure you could switch your timing reference to left side, but that CAN create other issues.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  5. Back To Top    #25

    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    Which is a FUN task when you are tuning the right side and if your timing reference is the right midbass/midrange. Sure you could switch your timing reference to left side, but that CAN create other issues.
    The timing driver doesn’t matter, you generally use a passenger side mid That works for all the drivers, you just tell rew to use the passenger mid as an output and set the routing to suit so the passenger mid is timing channel and the rest of the drivers are run from right outputs, inc left midbass and left tweeter, you basically time every driver to the one mid that plays the chirp everytime

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    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    The timing driver doesn’t matter, you generally use a passenger side mid That works for all the drivers, you just tell rew to use the passenger mid as an output and set the routing to suit so the passenger mid is timing channel and the rest of the drivers are run from right outputs, inc left midbass and left tweeter, you basically time every driver to the one mid that plays the chirp everytime
    But if you only have a Left and Right output, and you choose right output, how can you easily just have the mid play the timing reference in REW? I get all the right side trying to play the timing reference so in the past, when I was using it in a car, I had to quickly mute and unmute things between the timing reference and beginning of the sweep.

    Home theatre through my avr is easy because I can select each channel individually.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  7. Back To Top    #27

    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    You don’t need to mute anything, you play the mid and then output the sweep from the same mid so right output is the timing reference channel, and the right output plays the sweep .. that is your reference, so rew can work out that time from chirp to sweep, then you know the msec from chirp to sweep... then the right output is timing and left goes to all the other drivers for the sweep unmuted one at a time, this way you can compare the timing of the sweep to the chirp

    you are seemingly playing the chirp and the sweep from both channels if you have to mute drivers mid timing test

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    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    You don’t need to mute anything, you play the mid and then output the sweep from the same mid so right output is the timing reference channel, and the right output plays the sweep .. that is your reference, so rew can work out that time from chirp to sweep, then you know the msec from chirp to sweep... then the right output is timing and left goes to all the other drivers for the sweep unmuted one at a time, this way you can compare the timing of the sweep to the chirp

    you are seemingly playing the chirp and the sweep from both channels if you have to mute drivers mid timing test
    So are you saying only have the timing reference play that first time? Then enter msec delay information into the timing offset window prior to sweep?

    Or are you having the timing reference play every time still?

    The way I have done it is use the right mid as the acoustic timing reference and then get the left side info. Then use the left side as the timing reference and get the right side info. I have also tried just using the right mid as the timing reference for both right and left side. This, right side was the need for unmute mid, mute mid unmute tweeter/midbass on right side stuff. Left side was fairly easy because I just made the timing reference the right mid and left it unmuted and played the sweep out of the left side individual speakers.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  9. Back To Top    #29

    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    You can’t change the timing reference driver as that will throw out timing between left and right

    the timing chirp plays everytime, you just vary the driver that plays the sweep

    you have to change the driver signal routing, so if the right mid plays the timing chirp you route the right signal to that driver, and every other driver gets the left channel signal routed to it...

    so effectively how you did it with the right mid and the left side and then route the left signal to the right midbass and tweeter, that way you can sweep the right mid with the timing chirp and sweep from the right channel/right mid also... that way you get a timing detail for the right mid, now you swap the sweep to the left output and you get timing info from chirp to sweep now you can find the difference between the timing chirp drivers timing and the other drivers timing as displayed then adjust ta to suit

    you’ve not swapped the channel routing round which takes two seconds in a helix
    Last edited by dumdum; 04-22-2021 at 04:59 PM.

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    Re: Helix P-SIX - EQ Linking Help

    That makes sense on the channel routing aspect of it.

    Thanks for that.....and now I will never actually use it because I have Smaart and open sound meter ...but good information for others! Still a PITA to get to work and get good information even after doing that. Honestly the muting/unmuting wasn't too bad in the helix (just quick press on the number keys that represents that channel), still didn't get great stuff out of it.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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