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Thread: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

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    Noob BenevolentDictator's Avatar
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    Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    So I've been voraciously reading as much info as I come across regarding DSPs and whatnot. I keep hitting walls all over the place in my understanding of the whole process and how to apply it to my upcoming build.

    Follow me on this journey real quick so you can see they why I'm asking and the what I need to learn/understand. I initially started with the ideas for my build in a very linear sense match output to how many speakers I have (6 speakers/ 6 chan. amp etc. etc.) In watching hours of video, 1000s of words of thread and passively engaging in conversations across forums and in person I've come to realize that I need to think more dynamically with how I'm trying to go about this. I will reiterate, I have no intention of competing....ever...just not my energy/not within my bank balance/ not within my time. I literally got into this hobby because I love music...no more no less. My drives to and from work and wherever else are just excuses to listen to whatever music I want to hear.

    That being said....Nick Adams' GTI has been the benchmark (in terms of ideas within reach) for where I would like my car to be. It will never be like his for a myriad of reasons but chiefly his application of power to his speakers intrigued me. Thanks to him and others that responded to a question I left in his build log I landed at a place where I plan to run more power to my drivers. I can put a quick list up of what drivers I've gone with if that is needed.

    I was going to go zapco 6 channel...separate DSP...Wolfram Monoblock. I'm still going Wolfram for my subs but I've come to the realization that to save money I should go with a DSP/amp combo. This is what I've landed on....ADSP-Z8 IV-8 | ZAPCO bridging it to a 4 channel for the mids and tweets and buying this....Z-150.4 II | ZAPCO bridging it to the midbass.

    Now....if I go with the DSP/amp combo....in layman's terms....please explain to me how I would connect the 2 speakers that are on a separate amp to the DSP (along with the 2 subs on a separate amp) and not run into any issues.


    I apologize (kind of) if this is some basic shit to you gentlemen that have been doing this for a while but I'm trying to learn. If I do it this way I pretty much will save myself 12-13 hundred dollars and that matters lol.

    Thanks in advance.
    A man cannot become a hero until he can see the root of his downfall

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    It has to have rca outs to go from the dsp/amp to the second amp. I can't tell if that one you have listed does....It is a mess on their website. I don't think it does because it is an 8 channel amp and 8 channel dsp. It needs to be a 8 channel amp and 10 channel dsp.

    lets look at the helix p6, it clearly has line outputs for another 2 channels:

    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Noob BenevolentDictator's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    That makes sense.

    This is getting more and more complicated. I'm trying to simplify this install.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    It has to have rca outs to go from the dsp/amp to the second amp. I can't tell if that one you have listed does....It is a mess on their website. I don't think it does because it is an 8 channel amp and 8 channel dsp. It needs to be a 8 channel amp and 10 channel dsp.

    lets look at the helix p6, it clearly has line outputs for another 2 channels:

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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    The helix p6 does what you want, or helix m4 dsp and another m4 non dsp (could bridge the second one to your woofers) would as well for close to $1000. (at least based on forum posts and dollar exchanges showing the m4 dsp to be about $600 USD, could be more/less. I don't actually know).
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    One thing I noticed with the helix amps (p6 included) is that they don't show bridged ratings which concerns me. Am I incorrect in assuming that this means they can't/shouldn't be bridged?

    QUOTE=Jdunk54nl;68731]The helix p6 does what you want, or helix m4 dsp and another m4 non dsp (could bridge the second one to your woofers) would as well for close to $1000. (at least based on forum posts and dollar exchanges showing the m4 dsp to be about $600 USD, could be more/less. I don't actually know).[/QUOTE]
    A man cannot become a hero until he can see the root of his downfall

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    Quote Originally Posted by BenevolentDictator View Post
    One thing I noticed with the helix amps (p6 included) is that they don't show bridged ratings which concerns me. Am I incorrect in assuming that this means they can't/shouldn't be bridged?
    No they can't be bridged, only the m4 dsp can be bridged. Although you really shouldn't need to bridge them in reality. 120w rms will get really loud (you will probably never actually use that much with music on woofers or smaller, only on subwoofers) and this is what the p6 puts out per channel.

    Read this: It is more focused on tweeters but you will get the point. Note* at the end he does mention that you also apply crossover filters to each speaker which also impact how much power each speaker gets (cuts it more)

    https://www.audiofrog.com/pink-noise...get-150-watts/
    Last edited by Jdunk54nl; 01-13-2021 at 11:34 AM.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    I appreciate the link and the input. That puts some things in perspective. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    No they can't be bridged, only the m4 dsp can be bridged. Although you really shouldn't need to bridge them in reality. 120w rms will get really loud (you will probably never actually use that much with music on woofers or smaller, only on subwoofers) and this is what the p6 puts out per channel.

    Read this: It is more focused on tweeters but you will get the point. Note* at the end he does mention that you also apply crossover filters to each speaker which also impact how much power each speaker gets (cuts it more)

    https://www.audiofrog.com/pink-noise...get-150-watts/
    A man cannot become a hero until he can see the root of his downfall

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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    There is a belief that massively overpowered amplifiers have more "headroom" to respond to musical transients. IE if you have 250wrms to your mid-range that it will respond quickly and with little effort vs 25wrms.

    In reality at normal listening levels you will rarely exceed 10wrms into that mid-range based on the voltage of the wave coming out of the amp. And then there is the fact that a speaker is not a straight resistance but an impedance that varies quite a bit with frequency, so the amplifier has to send varying amounts of current at different frequencies to support the desired wattage. its the idea that if you are trying to put out a fire (your volume) with a garden hose that has a valve being fed from a water tank, if that water tank is larger and higher off the ground you will be able to go from a trickle to a deluge faster.

    I doubt if there is much to that, but part of it is history and lore and tradition, ie we all love the old school builds with surfboards and extruded heat sinks filling up the trunk. And I admit I get weak in the knees when I see someone bridging channels on two Zapco AP150 to send 300wrms to each speaker in the front stage.

    That being said, power is cheap enough now that I fall into the same trap. I have 180Wrms on my tweets and mids, and 215wrms to each 10" woofer and 600wrms to my sub.

    But even after the loudest listening session (modest by most car audio standards I'm sure) I can barely even fell any warmth in the amps, and then only the sub and posisbly the woofers.

    btu its still fun to tell people I have 4500watts (peak power).

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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    You said your not going to compete so don't get caught up in needing or wanting headroom. I used to try and give my speakers as much wattage as they could handle. Now I give my midbass speakers 75 watts each. They are every bit as loud as when I was giving them 300 watts each. The integrated Helix amps are not bridgeable but they do put out healthy watts at 2 0hms. As Preston stated above, sometimes that speaker will present a 2 0hm load depending on the dynamics of the music. My biggest concern with the Helix V8 that I use was power. Now that I own it and use it I'm glad its only 75 watts as my electrical system never complains. Once you add a lot of power be prepaired to start upgrading your electrical system.

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    Re: Understanding DSPs a bit more....

    Quote Originally Posted by preston View Post

    That being said, power is cheap enough now that I fall into the same trap. I have 180Wrms on my tweets and mids, and 215wrms to each 10" woofer and 600wrms to my sub.

    But even after the loudest listening session (modest by most car audio standards I'm sure) I can barely even fell any warmth in the amps, and then only the sub and posisbly the woofers.

    btu its still fun to tell people I have 4500watts (peak power).

    I fell into that trap too, although it was more because the amps I wanted and the price I paid. My pdx v9 has a birthsheet of 140w rms capabilities and this is on my tweeters and rear fill (never ever giving it that much), my pdx f6 had a birth sheet of 175w rms and this is on my 6.5" and my midrange, again not anywhere near this amount actually used and 600 w rms on my sub, this might actually maybe in a long shot be used.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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