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Thread: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

  1. Back To Top    #11
    Wave Shepherd - aka Jazzi Justin Zazzi's Avatar
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    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Very cool dumdum, thank you!
    Measure with mics, mark with chalk, cut with torch, grind to fit, sand to finish, paint to match.
    Updated Justin tuning sheet (Justin and Erica tuning companion for SMAART and REW)
    Do it for them.

  2. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by ckirocz28 View Post
    If you're using Windows 10 on that computer, you can press "Windows button"+Shift+S to take screenshots, full screen, just a window, or a smaller area. It's better than a phone pic.
    Currently, I'm using a 160 hz low passed signal (varied by subwoofer level control) that is mixed into my midbass and is also low passed for my subs, it seems to alleviate some of these problems. What are your thoughts on that?
    Are you using virtual channels in a helix dsp? If you mean the bottom end of the midbass level also changes with the sub level then that will make the crossover remain the same as if the sub goes up by 6db so does the adjoining part of the midbass, if that’s what you’ve done it’s a good solution... it means your phase relationship will remain the same as it’s at the same point whatever the sub level is set to 👍🏼

  3. Back To Top    #13
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Hey Dumdum, what version of Smaart are you using? Di or V8? Also what microphone(s) and I/O device if you are using one? I am very tempted to finally purchase my own copy and am leaning towards the di version.....
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Also, for those that want to play with phase, you can do a little of that with REW and the alignment tool. To get to it, you need a newer version of REW.
    Take IR measurements by pressing the measure button (not RTA).
    Go to the ALL spl tab and click the gear icon.
    Click the alignment tool.
    Select the two drivers you want to phase align
    Adjust the delay of one or the other to get the phase to match up around the crossover.
    If negative delay, the speaker is closer than the other, if positive, it means that speaker is farther away than the other.

    You can also see how the FR above is impacted by the delay. This isn't "real time" like Smaart, but you can at least take one measurement of each driver, use the tool, then make a change and see how it works. It used to be every change you had to take another measurement.

    YMMV with this, I haven't had great luck using this and setting the delays suggested, the center image is always off when I do.....I am sure it is user error.

    Note 1* Unfortunately the dsp I am using for this vehicle has maximum delay of 8ms
    Note 2* Make sure if you are doing this, you set your sub level appropriately for measuring against a single speaker. My subs are 6db higher than a single speaker but with both mids playing the sub level crosses with both mids at 80hz.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the generated minimum phase version and levels adjusted (via rew and measurement action button), maybe this is what I need to use ???

    Edit* just played around with this, it gave me the same time alignment of ~2.20s for EVERY driver except sub at 0...This would not give me a center image....
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Jdunk54nl; 01-05-2021 at 11:46 AM.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  5. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    Hey Dumdum, what version of Smaart are you using? Di or V8? Also what microphone(s) and I/O device if you are using one? I am very tempted to finally purchase my own copy and am leaning towards the di version.....
    Smaart di2 which is a stripped down version of 8 with only two inputs and one transfer function at a time

    i use a focusrite 2i2 and a Dayton mic currently, although I am considering an earthworks m23

  6. Back To Top    #16
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    Smaart di2 which is a stripped down version of 8 with only two inputs and one transfer function at a time

    i use a focusrite 2i2 and a Dayton mic currently, although I am considering an earthworks m23
    Only 1 mic?
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  7. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    Only 1 mic?
    For timing and phase aligning drivers I only want one mic... and for response/eq purposes I don’t use a static mic anyway so multiple mics aren’t required

    I just ordered a nice shiny new isemcon emx-7150

  8. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    Are you using virtual channels in a helix dsp? If you mean the bottom end of the midbass level also changes with the sub level then that will make the crossover remain the same as if the sub goes up by 6db so does the adjoining part of the midbass, if that’s what you’ve done it’s a good solution... it means your phase relationship will remain the same as it’s at the same point whatever the sub level is set to
    MiniDSP 8x12, with a physical loopback for both front and subs (both to avoid differing delays from the extra pass through the dsp).

  9. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    Are you using virtual channels in a helix dsp? If you mean the bottom end of the midbass level also changes with the sub level then that will make the crossover remain the same as if the sub goes up by 6db so does the adjoining part of the midbass, if that’s what you’ve done it’s a good solution... it means your phase relationship will remain the same as it’s at the same point whatever the sub level is set to
    I don't think the virtual channels in the Helix allow that, but I don't own one, I just read the manual. It would be nice if that were possible in any dsp's software without the extra external connections.

  10. Back To Top    #20

    Re: Sub level and how it effects phase alignment and crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    Also, for those that want to play with phase, you can do a little of that with REW and the alignment tool. To get to it, you need a newer version of REW.
    Take IR measurements by pressing the measure button (not RTA).
    Go to the ALL spl tab and click the gear icon.
    Click the alignment tool.
    Select the two drivers you want to phase align
    Adjust the delay of one or the other to get the phase to match up around the crossover.
    If negative delay, the speaker is closer than the other, if positive, it means that speaker is farther away than the other.

    You can also see how the FR above is impacted by the delay. This isn't "real time" like Smaart, but you can at least take one measurement of each driver, use the tool, then make a change and see how it works. It used to be every change you had to take another measurement.

    YMMV with this, I haven't had great luck using this and setting the delays suggested, the center image is always off when I do.....I am sure it is user error.

    Note 1* Unfortunately the dsp I am using for this vehicle has maximum delay of 8ms
    Note 2* Make sure if you are doing this, you set your sub level appropriately for measuring against a single speaker. My subs are 6db higher than a single speaker but with both mids playing the sub level crosses with both mids at 80hz.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2021-01-05 at 08.29.16.jpg 
Views:	602 
Size:	327.3 KB 
ID:	15062


    This is the generated minimum phase version and levels adjusted (via rew and measurement action button), maybe this is what I need to use ???

    Edit* just played around with this, it gave me the same time alignment of ~2.20s for EVERY driver except sub at 0...This would not give me a center image....
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2021-01-05 at 08.46.24.jpg 
Views:	500 
Size:	316.1 KB 
ID:	15063
    Mute one channel of input before the subs are mixed in to get an appropriate level.

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