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Thread: Sound deadening questions

  1. Back To Top    #11
    Noob SQFord's Avatar
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    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Oh boy as in..... good job or oh boy as in ..... well hey if I did mess up it’s all good. That is how we learn.

  2. Back To Top    #12
    DIYMA Janitor SkizeR's Avatar
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    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by SQFord View Post
    Oh boy as in..... good job or oh boy as in ..... well hey if I did mess up it’s all good. That is how we learn.
    Oh boy as in lots of bad info from a particular post, and oh boy as in, well, frankly.. killmat isn't worth the effort it takes to install it. Very poor performing product.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  3. Back To Top    #13

    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
    Oh boy as in lots of bad info from a particular post, and oh boy as in, well, frankly.. killmat isn't worth the effort it takes to install it. Very poor performing product.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    Don't like the implication that MLV is all basically the same?

    Or that CCF doesn't block sound and just makes sure the MLV doesn't vibrate with the underlying surface?

    The vagueposts are really what's unhelpful.
    At least other people try.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

  4. Back To Top    #14
    DIYMA Janitor SkizeR's Avatar
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    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post

    I do buy cheap CCF and MLV. Most recently I actually gambled and bought some CCF on Wish - seriously - and it actually was great. Cost me like $100 for 100 sq/ft. Bargain.
    Bad idea. Ccf is important and shouldn't be skipped on as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    CCF is a barrier product,
    No its not



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    so it can absorb the sound.
    No it won't. This is not what ccf is for or does.



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    MLV is known to only be manufactured in a few places. It's basically "all the same".
    Correct, but so long as its Virgin. Cheap stuff is recycled



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    buy 1/16"
    Don't do that. Doing a noise barrier is a big and tedious job and you want to make it worth your effort. Use something thats at least 1Lb/sq foot



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    I used 10mm CCF in my hatch so I'd have a good barrier layer, because it's a hatchback and I want to try to stretch it and form it to my spare tire well - that's a hell of a tall ask for a stretch even if I'm gluing it - which I'll have to - hence the thick barrier layer.
    Again, no




    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    Damping material - and use heat.
    Constrained layer damper. Do NOT use heat. It will break down and ruin the butyl if not careful. Also, if you are using a product that needs heat its a product you shouldn't be using. Its just unnecessary



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    Closed Cell Foam - comes in 5mm-10mm thicknesses. It's just a barrier
    No. Ccf is not a barrier



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    layer to decouple the MLV.
    There you go. This is one use for it



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    Mass Loaded Vinyl - comes in 1/16" and 1/8", and damn the 1/8" is heavy. You know those lead blankets when you get Xrays? This is what you use to block outside sound from entering your vehicle, and you have to do a good job so you don't have gaps where it can get through.
    Yes, THIS is a barrier




    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    It's a hell of a project since you basically have to strip your interior out, then go through the process three times with three layers - so I'm envious of the fact that you have a van to do this to.
    Yeah, so use the right products to make the effort worth it

    http://www.resonixsoundsolutions.com...ce-information

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  5. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Quote Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
    Bad idea. Ccf is important and shouldn't be skipped on as well.




    No its not





    No it won't. This is not what ccf is for or does.





    Correct, but so long as its Virgin. Cheap stuff is recycled





    Don't do that. Doing a noise barrier is a big and tedious job and you want to make it worth your effort. Use something thats at least 1Lb/sq foot





    Again, no






    Constrained layer damper. Do NOT use heat. It will break down and ruin the butyl if not careful. Also, if you are using a product that needs heat its a product you shouldn't be using. Its just unnecessary





    No. Ccf is not a barrier





    There you go. This is one use for it




    Yes, THIS is a barrier






    Yeah, so use the right products to make the effort worth it

    www.resonixsoundsolutions.com/reference-information

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    You are completely misquoting me, and it takes an asshole to do that to try to paint a false narrative.

    I took the time to very explicitly describe that:
    A) damping material is for vibrations.
    B) ccf is a barrier between that and mlv, to decouple them so the MLV isn't vibrating.
    C) that MLV is what's blocking the sound.

    I also qualified that I'm personally only looking to lighter weight alternatives because I specifically have a light, sporty car and weight is the enemy. Your opinion on my preference on prioritizing weight is irrelevant.

    Here's the thing about quoting people:
    1) you have an obligation to read what they wrote, if you are going to make commentary on it at all - especially a charged, accusational commentary.
    2) it's nothing short of asshole to try to take quotes out of context to try make it look like what you misunderstood.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

    EDIT: Since one SINGLE vague word in my original post was so aggressively trolled, and with such a narrow-minded rant of aggression, rather than inquire on a potential misinterpretation or vagueness...
    ...I've edited that post, replacing one single word "it" with "MLV". I highlighted that in red and bold, in part to illustrate how aggressively this troll has tried to creatively edit and misquote what I've written to serve his misinformation attack. One word is not 11 quotes.
    Readers beware this guy and his aggression.
    Last edited by geolemon; 11-24-2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Pointed out my edit of the original post that was so aggressively misquoted

  6. Back To Top    #16

    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Also -
    The points I made don't come from my imagination. They are real.

    1) Don't skimp on damping material. It matters.
    2) All CCF really does is act like the pad that it is. It stops the vibrations of the underlying surface from being passed physically to the MLV.
    It's a vibration barrier - nothing more. It doesn't stop sound. Other than adhesive, there's not much "quality" argument. CCF is CCF. You buy the thickness you need. It decouples vibration.
    3) MLV is MLV. Even many of the brands admit that they source from the same contract manufacturers. And many of them share dB-by-frequency charts to show effectiveness. They match.

    None of these are false statements.

    But if you have test results that show how one CCF objectively outperformed other CCF in a "head to head CCF comparison" that I'm not aware ever occurred (and I suspect the reason it hasn't is exactly what I'm saying), please feel free to share that set of measurements.
    That WOULD be a positive contribution to this thread.

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  7. Back To Top    #17
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Sound deadening questions

    These test results from Justin Zazzi do that.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5yd1s6vbxb...0v1.3.pdf?dl=0
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  8. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Actually, yes but unfortunately no.

    That's an excellent test setup and test candidate lineup - including the inclusion of MLV with no vibration barrier between it and the damping layer, to really serve as a control variable.
    I personally love the inclusion of all these alternative materials, including some pretty ghetto ones and a few pretty clever ones. That's really the main focus of his test.

    As it relates to my point, however, that all CCF are pretty equal - the only items that correlate to "CCF" are:
    • Sonic Barrier 1/2" (this is just 1/2" CCF)
    • Sonic Barrier 1/4" (I *think* this is just 1/4" CCF - this is now discontinued and some of Sonic Barrier's other thicknesses are actually composite layered products)


    There's also a "generic" foam option listed, but that's significantly not CCF - that's open-cell foam. (it performed worse than I would have guessed, but that's irrelevant)

    The thing I'd also question is the very small sample squares, which could just be called into question for not representing real-world use where there would be more CCF to absorb the vibrations laterally - that could penalize some of the materials (or, thinner versions of like materials) disproportionately - but at least the test is fair in the consistency.

    If Justin were to replicate this test, but instead use it to compare different CCF's - including different brand name CCF and several generic CCF - I'm confident you'd see a pretty tight grouping pretty close to where the CCF's measured on this were. That's my point.

    Unfortunately that's not what this test measured - but it's still a great test with some real eye-opening results.
    Last edited by geolemon; 11-24-2020 at 09:31 AM. Reason: minor typos

  9. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Sound deadening questions

    Back on topic with the thread to benefit members rather than egos:

    The REAL interesting takeaway on his test here is that these three options actually perform better than CCF -
    • synthetic pillow stuffing
    • Thinsulate
    • Second Skin heatwave


    I always suspected the thick felt-like material that you see behind lots of OEM car panels might be a better performer - I've heard it called "jute" so maybe it's exactly the same as Second Skin heatwave.

    It's interesting that Second Skin doesn't advertise it as a vibration barrier, but does advertise it as a noise barrier - something that would also increase it's appeal to me, or any installer looking for an effective noise barrier.
    It's similarly noteworthy that literally EVERY composite product (3/4" Sonic Barrier and thicker, Cascade VB2 and VB4, Second Skin's own Luxury Liner) ALL use CCF as the vibration barrier - and not one of the three above. That's cause for pause.

    Especially in my personal case with trying to keep weight down in a car (and not a little - we're talking about 50 pounds of difference, in 100 sq.ft. of material... about the equivalent of removing a front seat!), I'd love to see the noise barrier effectiveness of these two options compared:
    • CCF with 1/8" MLV
    • Heatwave with 1/16" MLV


    Unfortunately, like the old Tootsie Roll pop commercial (not to show my age) - the world may never know. It's data we don't have.

    I can compare the expense:
    • Generic 10mm (1/2") CCF can be found for about $1/sq.ft.
    • Second Skin Heatwave comes in at just over $3/sq.ft (it's currently on sale though, just under $3).


    I made the point above about how spending more money for name-brand CCF is foolish over generic CCF.
    In this case, however, it seems there's a tangible benefit of Heatwave over CCF. Is it worth 3x the expense? Maybe. Shame it's not 1.5x the cost, or less.

    I'd again wonder why it's not used in the composite products.
    I'd again worry about the validity and potential flaws in the one single test that shows it to perform superior in a vibration barrier application.
    I'd wish that there were more tests that show it.
    I'd wish that SecondSkin would put up a plot of noise-reduction-by-frequency, like all the MLV OEM's do (and their alternative competitors, like this one which unfortunately performs lesser-than MLV).

    Those things would make the decision easier.
    In absence of data, or experimentation, the safest option is usually the tried-and-true traditional option - CCF.

    I may have a reasonable way to do this experiment myself - what I don't currently have is 1/16" MLV. Maybe I'll pick some up just for this, to compare to 1/8", and do the comparison myself.
    Last edited by geolemon; 11-24-2020 at 09:57 AM.

  10. Back To Top    #20
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Sound deadening questions

    I'm confused by your statement of not many CCF's were used....


    Second Skin Overkill is CCF
    RAAM ensolite is another CCF I believe
    SDS neoprene is a CCF
    Luxury liner pro is a CCF and MLV just coupled at the factory

    The two you said are CCF (Sonic Barrier) are actually open cell by PS's descriptions...

    "Sonic Barrier 1/2" Acoustic Sound Damping Foam with PSA 18" x 24"The Sonic Barrier 1/2" acoustic damping foam is a precisely engineered material that offers optimum absorption for its thickness. The material features our exclusive embossed surface finish that helps to trap acoustic energy and improve high frequency performance. This finish is applied to an acoustic-grade open-cell polyether foam,"
    Last edited by Jdunk54nl; 11-24-2020 at 10:12 AM.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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