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Thread: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

  1. Back To Top    #21
    Noob BenevolentDictator's Avatar
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    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Looks like you made a good choice. Can't wait to hear about how they turned out.



    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    I pulled the trigger!

    I was pretty tempted by the Evil 6.5s - so many good features plus underhung... but no measurements makes me skeptical, and it doesn't matter anyway because they are out of stock until basically 2021.

    Between the Dayton RS-180 and Exodus Anarchy, they were honestly way closer than I thought. For the extra technology and excursion advantage of the Anarchy, the Dayton have an even more proven track record, including use in a four-digit high-end home cabinet.

    In the end, two things kept pulling on me:

    1) From the OEM work that I've done with XBL subs back in the day, all the talks and engineering work with Dan Wiggins, I've always been an XBL fan, and really always been dying to play with some XBL midwoofers.

    2) If they don't work out - I can make a subwoofer or two out of them for my house. Neither sound bar in my house has a sub yet. They'll be fun toys no matter what.
    If the Dayton didn't work out... More clutter in my storage.

    Also, reading - I don't recall if it was the Dayton or the Evil, but someone mentioned they heard chuffing from the air gap around the pole piece. I'm skeptical that's even true, but can't say I didn't think about it - and realized that I've only used drivers with phase plugs in midrange and up - never for high-excursion use.

    So i pulled the trigger on four Exodus Anarchy.


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  2. Back To Top    #22
    That Guy Pb82 Ronin's Avatar
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    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    I guess I'm too late to the party. I'm a big fan of the Dayton's. I run the 225 in my setup, and so far, they have been the best upgrade to sound quality since I added a DSP. FWIW, I removed a 6.5 Focal KX2 driver to go to them.



    Lemans Blue ZO6. Pioneer HU, Focal and Dayton drivers, JL VXi, JL XD, TW5's...and on and on...

  3. Back To Top    #23

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pb82 Ronin View Post
    I guess I'm too late to the party. I'm a big fan of the Dayton's. I run the 225 in my setup, and so far, they have been the best upgrade to sound quality since I added a DSP. FWIW, I removed a 6.5 Focal KX2 driver to go to them.
    Yes, where were you?

    Some of the reasons I'm starting with a lower cost set is because
    a) It's way more fun to have something inexpensive that performs excellent - like a sleeper hot rod.
    b) It's way more fun to invest small dollars and not care about dumping what doesn't work out and it's no real sacrifice to swap something else in.

    So are you saying the Dayton RS-180 compare favorably to the 6.5" Focal KX2?
    In my opinion that's very high praise, considering - the old (back when I sold Focal 10-ish years ago) K2Power 2 way set used to come with that driver and the TN-52, and that particular component set was my absolute favorite component set bar none, including that-era Utopia set.
    Impressive, if so.

    Four of these came to about $250 shipped. Four of the RS-180 are even less expensive.
    Like I said just yesterday - if these Anarchy don't work out as midbass in my car, they'll work out elsewhere in my collection. I can swap something else in. I probably would give something like the Dayton a try... or maybe the SSA Evil will be back in production by then... or the other day I just noticed the Fi N.7 isn't $150 each, it's $150/pair, which - had I noticed it months ago - would have earned it a spot for consideration.
    No worries. Maybe next round.

  4. Back To Top    #24

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    So you are planning to run 2 per side in door boxes ?
    Sounds ideal !
    You seem pretty concerned with upper end response as well, I don't think you're running a 2 way ? Heck I never run my mid basses past 300 usually although they certainly can sound good much higher.

  5. Back To Top    #25
    That Guy Pb82 Ronin's Avatar
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    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    Yes, where were you?

    So are you saying the Dayton RS-180 compare favorably to the 6.5" Focal KX2?
    In my opinion that's very high praise, considering - the old (back when I sold Focal 10-ish years ago) K2Power 2 way set used to come with that driver and the TN-52, and that particular component set was my absolute favorite component set bar none, including that-era Utopia set.
    Impressive, if so.
    I can't speak for the 180s. I run the RS-225 which is the 8" version of the 180. I replaced the 6.5" KX2s with the 8" driver to get more mid-bass performance. I've forever been a Focal fan-boy as I've run them almost exclusively for the better part of 15 years. Those Dayton's though...they're a really impressive driver in an active setup. I may have different feelings if I was running a passive setup. But one thing absolutely noticeable with the Daytons was the Fs. The KX2's were NOT happy playing anything below 75ish Hz. But with the Daytons having a 33 Hz Fs...we run them all the way down to like 50 Hz and they're still happy. That 50-75 Hz range is CRUCIAL for mid-bass performance...at least in a Corvette.

    So in simple terms, the Daytons crushed the Focals in performance not because of quality...but because of mechanics. Bigger driver, lower Fs, more excursion, etc. In my case, that made ALL the difference.



    Lemans Blue ZO6. Pioneer HU, Focal and Dayton drivers, JL VXi, JL XD, TW5's...and on and on...

  6. Back To Top    #26

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by preston View Post
    So you are planning to run 2 per side in door boxes ?
    Sounds ideal !
    You seem pretty concerned with upper end response as well, I don't think you're running a 2 way ? Heck I never run my mid basses past 300 usually although they certainly can sound good much higher.
    Factory door locations, front door and rear door. In coupes and other cars, I'm more known for running simple 2+1 stereo setups. When I use the front door locations only, I seem to always find myself plagued with the dreaded "midbass null". That's a little complex to explain, but if you can imagine sound reflecting around your interior - there's a pathlength directly from the speaker to your ears, and then there's other pathlengths - imagine one going from the speaker to the windshield to your ear. If the overall aggregate sum of all the pathlength differences is destructive rather than constructive - you get a midbass null at whatever frequencies that destructive cancellation occurs. It's notorious in normal coupes/sedans/hatchbacks to occur somewhere in the midbass - and even more frustratingly around 70hz.

    So, by utilizing the rear door locations for midbass as well as the fronts - in my car I actually have very similar pathlength distances direct to my ears, comparing the front to rear door distances, and that's good for helping that fundamentally not mess up my imaging - as well as fundamentally not cause me the same problem I'm trying to solve! Mainly what will be most helpful is that all the reflected pathlength differences from the front speakers will be very different from the reflected pathlength differences from the rear speakers, and that should help, if not entirely eliminate, the destructive cancellation.

    Yes, I am planning to run door boxes - not only for protection against that annual Rust Kote oil mist treatment here in Buffalo NY, but also after reading a lot of experiences with the Anarchy's. I might even try to use my 3D printer for that - we'll see.

    Now, since my Civic Sport hatch only came with door speakers (the higher trims also came with tweeters in the sail panels), that means you'll need to stay tuned to my build thread for the real front stage - which I can promise won't be conventional. I've built myself a rig in my basement, complete with real windshield, fake dashboard and other acoustical needs so that I can experiment in the warmth of my home all winter, to iron out a few ideas, before doing anything unintentionally permanent to the car.
    That plan may include some very small mids... so I may need to run the door speakers up higher in the frequency range than, say, a conventional 3-way.

    But for the short term, also, I'm not going to just run midbass and a sub, so yes - I may actually just install some tweeters in my sail panels, as a short-term "good enough", using the front Anarchies as a biamped component set.

  7. Back To Top    #27

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pb82 Ronin View Post
    I can't speak for the 180s. I run the RS-225 which is the 8" version of the 180. I replaced the 6.5" KX2s with the 8" driver to get more mid-bass performance. I've forever been a Focal fan-boy as I've run them almost exclusively for the better part of 15 years. Those Dayton's though...they're a really impressive driver in an active setup. I may have different feelings if I was running a passive setup. But one thing absolutely noticeable with the Daytons was the Fs. The KX2's were NOT happy playing anything below 75ish Hz. But with the Daytons having a 33 Hz Fs...we run them all the way down to like 50 Hz and they're still happy. That 50-75 Hz range is CRUCIAL for mid-bass performance...at least in a Corvette.

    So in simple terms, the Daytons crushed the Focals in performance not because of quality...but because of mechanics. Bigger driver, lower Fs, more excursion, etc. In my case, that made ALL the difference.
    Interesting - well, I hear plenty of compliments on the Dayton's SQ also - and their use in some high-end cabinets (of which specifically I can't find now for the life of me) makes me think they are pretty refined as well. I am curious. I definitely haven't seen a reviewer compare them in any sort of A/B capacity to Focal K2's, or really any speaker that I'm personally experienced with. I'd be massively impressed if they were on-par with those drivers - but you never know. It's very possible. It's a set of 6.5's that I hold on a very high pedestal in my mind. If I had four of those sitting around (or even found a good price on), I wouldn't even have considered this. So, to scratch that XBL itch, I supposed I'm glad I don't.

    When I sold them, I was really impressed with the whole line. I became a fan. Each price point was more than competitive. I think I mentioned in here, I'm going to be using my old TN52's that I've really been saving for an aspirational install like this one.
    I'm curious, since I never have yet - have you heard the Flax series?

  8. Back To Top    #28

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    If you’re running midbass in the rear doors as well as the front doors, do the rear units need time alignment as well or can you run them in parallel with the midbass in the front doors with the same time alignment set for those?


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  9. Back To Top    #29

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiW80 View Post
    If you’re running midbass in the rear doors as well as the front doors, do the rear units need time alignment as well or can you run them in parallel with the midbass in the front doors with the same time alignment set for those?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That's a good point - that's the only reason for my comment on the equal pathlengths, actually. Great minds think alike, right?
    Equalizing the pathlengths is the passive way to time-align speakers. At this point, I only say I suspect that they are equal based on visual observation. I haven't done physical measurements yet, and regardless I am planning on powering them from four separate amplifier channels.

    If they are technically actually equal-ish within a couple inches, then technically I don't need four channels for them (depending also on how high I let them play in the frequency spectrum) - but regardless I'm still targeting the Helix V Eight as a combo eight channel amp and DSP as a pretty cost effective, space-efficient path to all the DSP and amp channels that I'll need, save for the sub.
    Or, plan B at this point (which was my original plan A) is a RF Power T1000x5ad 5 channel and Power T400x4ad 4 channel, to get me all my amp channels, and a miniDSP 8x12 for the DSP. Either way - I'll have 4 separate channels for the midbass and correponding DSP channels.
    So unless they truly work out to be equal pathlengths, I will need to time align them at least slightly. I'm banking on them not being equal to the inch.

    To your point, especially for other cars, "yes" - if the rear door or rear deck locations were different pathlength distances to your listening position, then for certain you'd need time alignment.
    Last edited by geolemon; 11-18-2020 at 10:45 AM.

  10. Back To Top    #30

    Re: Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    That's a good point - that's the only reason for my comment on the equal pathlengths, actually. Great minds think alike, right?
    Equalizing the pathlengths is the passive way to time-align speakers. At this point, I only say I suspect that they are equal based on visual observation. I haven't done physical measurements yet, and regardless I am planning on powering them from four separate amplifier channels.

    If they are technically actually equal-ish within a couple inches, then technically I don't need four channels for them (depending also on how high I let them play in the frequency spectrum) - but regardless I'm still targeting the Helix V Eight as a combo eight channel amp and DSP as a pretty cost effective, space-efficient path to all the DSP and amp channels that I'll need, save for the sub.
    Or, plan B at this point (which was my original plan A) is a RF Power T1000x5ad 5 channel and Power T400x4ad 4 channel, to get me all my amp channels, and a miniDSP 8x12 for the DSP. Either way - I'll have 4 separate channels for the midbass and correponding DSP channels.
    So unless they truly work out to be equal pathlengths, I will need to time align them at least slightly. I'm banking on them not being equal to the inch.

    To your point, especially for other cars, "yes" - if the rear door or rear deck locations were different pathlength distances to your listening position, then for certain you'd need time alignment.
    I was considering doing similar in my car

    Issue is I have the amp channels but not the DSP channels for TA


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