Narrowing down the midbass to a few.

[geolemon]

Well, bear in mind - for the front stage, I simply can't do that first. There's about 30 years of concept ideas that I've finally committed to setting up a listening lab (complete with car windshield, faux-dash, A-pillars, windows, etc) so that I can use the upcoming winter months to proof them out into a workable implementation.

I have a target, set by one of my visits in the '00's to the high end audio section of CES, at the now-defunct Balzano Villetri booth (room) - a maker of one particular bulky, vertical approach to an onmi loudspeaker. It was actually a secondary setup in a very non-optimized part of their room, and was still the best imaging things I've ever heard.

Their vertical dual-cabinets would be impossible to implement in a car, but in the years that followed, the wheels have been turning, on achieving it. An omni setup... never been done in a car. I have done phase-aligned nearfield-arrays in-car, and if needed that could play a role. I have some ideas that merge these together. But none or all of these might work as hypothesized. Stay tuned to the build thread for that.

But that's not an excuse to put the whole install on hold - I will tackle the easier aspects first, including the midbass.

As a short-term stop-gap, I might even just install some tweeters in the sail panels for now, and try to use the fronts in a typical 2 way capacity. It's one more reason for scratching the SLS off my list.
Who knows - I could end up driving around like that for 6 months, a year... Other priorities have a way of popping up.

[geolemon]

After some more thought...
I'm half thinking of putting those suggested Sinfoni on my list. Obviously great woofers - but I'm still not thinking of them as a "first purchsae" woofer, any more than the Revelators.
I think I'm going to back-pocket those as a "Let's try a fun, inexpensive set first... if they don't work out, maybe we'll step up for the replacements".
But then again, there's midwoofers like the Fi N.7 too.

• Dayton RS-180 - Still on the list. Just feel like I'm leaning away from them, because of the traditional design. Don't get me wrong, lots of great speakers are overhung - but I'm all for a SQ motor having technology specifically designed to flatten that BL curve to eliminate intermodulation and therefore intermodulation distortion. Maybe I'll try to do a little more research on the actual driver architecture and engineering, to bring me a little peace at the thought of going this route. And I'm also aware of the frequency/excursion relationship, but reducing distortion even in the lowest midbass region is still important.

• Exodus Anarchy - I still love the idea of an XBL^2 midwoofer, but I'm not finding enough reviews, most people seem to be using this in a bass capacity. The Test Bench link shows that this does seem to be pretty decent up to about 3Khz, but then things get wonky quick. It's tough that one test bench is feeling a bit like my only source of data.

• SSA Evil 6.5 - The more I read, the more confidence I have. Seems these have been out longer than I realized, and there's lots of happy customers. Again, I like the underhung, with other technology (really nothing non-traditional - all proven) that makes all the positive reviews make sense. The odd thing is, I can't find any real test bench data to validate the reviews. 4500hz seems to be the upper limit (per the manufacturer), but I'm not finding a plot to see if there's any response oddity up high like with the Anarchy - it's something I expect the phase plug might help. I had thought I'd seen a Klippel, but now I'm not finding it.
  And of course - they are out of stock and not due back in until mid-December.

Granted - I'm really in no rush. I'm working from home, not commuting. I'm not driving often, until Covid is over. But still...

[Jscoyne2]

here's a quote on why the name of the driver is Evil from the designer.

"I think people are reading FAR too much into the name. The SSA Evil (massive 4" coil sub), went from an upper echelon sub for just a small segment of the market, to our most recognizable/known product. Surpassing the SSA Icon that has been in production over 10 years now, and even the SSA APM-2. So the "Evil" model name, pretty much took off and ran as customers shaped that name as our special top end model line. Meaning, our mid's and tweeters meant for higher end installs, kind of had to follow suit. In no way is it about the mid or the tweet are "Evil" in some low rent marketing ploy that is about marketing or pandering to teenagers or away from discerning ears, (quite the opposite) it is simply the model line name that is well understood as our top end offering. Our amplifiers are named IC to go with the Icon as they are a very strong option in the moderately priced (non-halo level) amplifier class. As due to where are our subwoofers established themselves in their respective market segments, so too will our expanding products to mostly follow the naming convention our customers are familiar with and like."

[BenevolentDictator]

While I cannot speak on the sq capabilities of this midbass in question (Dayton RS-180) I can definitely speak to a real world use of the driver in the most basic of situations performing like an absolute champion. I never once heard them struggle to play the frequency range I asked of it (60-1300) and they absolutely screamed while keeping up with my massive 15 receiving 2000 watts. I did no special treatment of my doors outside of a severely limited by design job of deadening the outer skin and no special enclosure made specifically for the application. I mounted them IB and prayed for good response and impact and to my surprise they exceeded my expectations. I can only imagine what they can do in FAR more capable hands than mine. Hopefully that helped. I'm thinking of going with those again for a build I'm doing in a Civic in the coming months....from both a cost perspective and proven ability in not so favorable conditions perspective they won me over. I plan to do a far better job deadening the doors of the civic build to see what they truly can do.

After some more thought...
I'm half thinking of putting those suggested Sinfoni on my list. Obviously great woofers - but I'm still not thinking of them as a "first purchsae" woofer, any more than the Revelators.
I think I'm going to back-pocket those as a "Let's try a fun, inexpensive set first... if they don't work out, maybe we'll step up for the replacements".
But then again, there's midwoofers like the Fi N.7 too.

• Dayton RS-180 - Still on the list. Just feel like I'm leaning away from them, because of the traditional design. Don't get me wrong, lots of great speakers are overhung - but I'm all for a SQ motor having technology specifically designed to flatten that BL curve to eliminate intermodulation and therefore intermodulation distortion. Maybe I'll try to do a little more research on the actual driver architecture and engineering, to bring me a little peace at the thought of going this route. And I'm also aware of the frequency/excursion relationship, but reducing distortion even in the lowest midbass region is still important.

• Exodus Anarchy - I still love the idea of an XBL^2 midwoofer, but I'm not finding enough reviews, most people seem to be using this in a bass capacity. The Test Bench link shows that this does seem to be pretty decent up to about 3Khz, but then things get wonky quick. It's tough that one test bench is feeling a bit like my only source of data.

• SSA Evil 6.5 - The more I read, the more confidence I have. Seems these have been out longer than I realized, and there's lots of happy customers. Again, I like the underhung, with other technology (really nothing non-traditional - all proven) that makes all the positive reviews make sense. The odd thing is, I can't find any real test bench data to validate the reviews. 4500hz seems to be the upper limit (per the manufacturer), but I'm not finding a plot to see if there's any response oddity up high like with the Anarchy - it's something I expect the phase plug might help. I had thought I'd seen a Klippel, but now I'm not finding it.
  And of course - they are out of stock and not due back in until mid-December.

Granted - I'm really in no rush. I'm working from home, not commuting. I'm not driving often, until Covid is over. But still...

[geolemon]

here's a quote on why the name of the driver is Evil from the designer.

"I think people are reading FAR too much into the name...
...the "Evil" model name, pretty much took off and ran as customers shaped that name as our special top end model line. Meaning, our mid's and tweeters meant for higher end installs, kind of had to follow suit. In no way is it about the mid or the tweet are "Evil" in some low rent marketing ploy..."

Funny, I read that same DIYMA thread actually just last night myself - and had to chuckle because right before that, one member basically expressed the same reaction to the name that I had - and yes, it doesn't/shouldn't matter, but it's still reassuring to hear Aaron himself say basically "we didn't give it an immature name on purpose - other circumstances led us to use that name - it was an existing name that already represented our top-of-the-line". So that's reassuring.

And as I'm sure you also gleaned from that thread - a lack of any real Klippel curves or test bench data leaves more than just ME skeptical. I do want to see how they measure, to really fairly compare them. It's bad enough that I'm buying without being able to listen.
...on the flip side, all (really, all!) the anecdotal experiences that I've read have been positive. Of course, you never know what anyone's real experience level or installation details are, but some of them do provide enough helpful detail to express more than "I liked 'em".

Speaking of helpful anecdotal experiences:

While I cannot speak on the sq capabilities of this midbass in question (Dayton RS-180) I can definitely speak to a real world use of the driver in the most basic of situations performing like an absolute champion. I never once heard them struggle to play the frequency range I asked of it (60-1300) and they absolutely screamed while keeping up with my massive 15 receiving 2000 watts. I did no special treatment of my doors outside of a severely limited by design job of deadening the outer skin and no special enclosure made specifically for the application. I mounted them IB and prayed for good response and impact and to my surprise they exceeded my expectations. I can only imagine what they can do in FAR more capable hands than mine. Hopefully that helped. I'm thinking of going with those again for a build I'm doing in a Civic in the coming months....from both a cost perspective and proven ability in not so favorable conditions perspective they won me over. I plan to do a far better job deadening the doors of the civic build to see what they truly can do.

Based on that I'd bet you did at least a decently effective job on that inner door treatment. If you had them playing all the way down to 60hz, that's asking a lot of excursion out of them - especially if they were keeping up with a 15 - even if that 15 were in a tiny sealed box. If you didn't hear them distressing, then that does give me more confidence in their Xmech that I can't say I have with the Evil -
That being said, I haven't read ANY accounts of the Evil bottoming out. And even with an underhung motor, there has to be SOME gap between the top plate and the back plate/T-yoke. I imagine they must have pulled off that design by using a machined top plate that extends the magnetic gap into the magnet cavity (or else it would have a monstrously thick top plate like that Tang Band 6.5 I linked earlier), but there must be at least a few mm of rear clearance. To be fair, an overhung motor like the RS-180 doesn't really have any inherent Xmech advantage, I'm just impressed to the point of being skeptical, at how little mounting depth they've pulled off for an underhung motor. Crazy.

One of my main draws to an underhung or even better, XBL^2 motor is the flatness of the BL curve. It's one thing to measure a driver, and distortion, and harmonics with relatively small signals... and even if you measure them with relatively large signals, it doesn't show you if that distortion level is constant, or if it increases or decreases as you turn the volume knob up and down. It sounds like you are pretty impressed with them even even at full tilt, so that's a good sign. Big thanks for sharing, and well written.

And no matter what you go with in that Civic, if you can source either some sheet metal or ABS sheet large enough to use to cover any actual big holes in that inner door structure - do that first, don't just layer over the holes with damping material. It won't add much cost or labor, and you can really get that thing working like a good baffle.

[geolemon]

So since the Evils are out of stock probably until 2021 and have no data anyway...
...here's a little side by side comparison of the RS-180 to the Anarchy's:

From a frequency response perspective - the Dayton is clearly a little more efficient, but they are pretty on-par response-wise. The Dayton is a little flatter through the midrange, then has a dip to a lower plateu for the midbass. The Anarchy rolls off more smoothly from midrange to midbass - but it may actually be true that the Dayton would be easier to EQ that plateu to equality... at least if my DSP of choice has some parametric capability. That slope is pretty darn close to 12dB/octave.
Both are pretty clearly limited in use above 3K... I might be able to squeeze using the Dayton up to 4K, but that's a pretty minor advantage - probably thanks to the phase plug, which has the side-effect of reducing the Sd available to the Dayton for pushing air - which is a legitimate potential disadvantage especially when you factor the Dayton has half the Xmax. But in actuality, probably only a minor disadvantage.
So all in all, kind of a wash. Pretty comparable.


I'd say "same with the distortion curves" but the Anarchy actually looks smoother here, both fundamentals and harmonics, although the third harmonic is pretty equal to the second harmonic on the Anarchy, especially down low - I would also bet because of the Dayton having a pole vent (less surface and no dustcap).
The actual distortion is pretty comparable also. It's a little tough when the Y-axis aren't equal and you have to mentally adjust, but increasing distortion down low is not only common but inaudible - so what really matters here is the Anarchy has a little peak poking over 1% THD about 500hz, and the Dayton has an even narrower peak also barely poking over 1% at about 1800hz.
Both too low of a percentage to really even think about, but I'd rather have the distortion down lower than up higher, so slight (but not really) advantage Exodus.

Note this isn't intermodulation distortion - more on that below with the BL and KMS curves.

There's a waterfall plot for both too, which show if there's any ringing - if there's an impulse sent to the speaker, how quickly does it quiet back down to perfectly still:

Again, for all intents and purposes, a wash. Here, the Exodus has a little "ring" showing about 6khz, but it's not bad and it's exactly where most have one - the Dayton doesn't, and I expect that's probably again due to the Exodus having a dustcap and the Dayton not having one. The Dayton has more ringing down low, but that's where it's less audible anyway. I'd call that slight advantage Dayton.

Here's my thoughts on those distortion curves, though - they are measured at a specific input level (voltage, or wattage). So as you turn the volume knob up or down, that can change. There's really a Z-axis here that would be that input level, that's still a mystery. Same with the waterfall plot - you'd need a 4 axis graph (wrap your head around that ).

And in a way, that's where the BL and KMS curves come in:


The jist is this:
As you turn up the volume knob, your excursion is going to increase.

(It's also true that as you ask your speaker to play lower frequencies, at any given volume level, distortion is higher - but as mentioned human hearing is less sensitive to distortion as frequencies decrease also - so for distortion discussion that more or less washes out.)

Now, if your speaker makes more motor strength (BL) at rest than it does at 3mm or 6mm or 9mm of excursion, that will cause the cone to slow down at those excursion levels, then speed up as it passes back through that center position again - so it won't accurately produce that waveform that your amp is sending it.

The same with the KMS curve - that's the spring force of the suspension. So if it provides more resistance at 3mm or 6mm or 9mm, that will also slow the cone down at excursion extremes, having the same distortion effect.
Together, those are the main cause of "intermodulation distortion", which is the most audible type of distortion, period.

That means that even if you have two speakers that have the same distortion curves - if you then turn the volume up and push them to higher excursion levels - that means the speaker with the flatter curves simply WILL be cleaner, where the speaker with the rounder curves will have increasing intermodulation distortion.

Here's another case where our scales don't quite match - the Dayton does look pretty flat-ish, but look at the X-axis... for the Dayton it only goes out to 8mm. For the Exodus, it's still basically flat until 8mm - that plot goes out to almost 17mm.
Same with the KMS curve. In fact, just as big of an advantage - smartly designed suspension on that Exodus.
So, from an intermodulation distortion prospect... the Exodus has an advantage. Here's the first big, clear advantage.

They also bench tested inductance - a voice coil is an inductor, and inductance is influenced also by the magnetic field:

In one way, the "flatter" this curve is, the better...
That's because in another way, inductance is said to limit the transient speed of a woofer - the opposite of a waterfall plot - it's the rise to an impulse.
And an inductor IS a filter element. Anyone who's built or seen passive crossovers knows that they are built from capacitors and inductors - and if you are building a 6dB/octave filter, then ALL you need is a capacitor for a high-pass...
...and an inductor for a low-pass.
The lower the inductance, the higher in frequency a speaker is able to play, as the voice coil itself can act as a low-pass crossover.
For these two - let's use the inductance at Xmax:

• Dayton: 0.5mH @ 6mm
• Exodus: 1.1mH @ 10mm (and still 1.0uH @ 6mm if you want to be equal that way)

At a glance, either way the Dayton has an advantage, but let's use a crossover calculator to see what that really means:

• Dayton: will low-pass itself at about 12,000hz 6dB/octave
• Exodus: will low-pass itself at about 5,500hz 6dB/octave

So - the Exodus really couldn't play above 5,500hz, you could say. The Dayton motor could play all the way up to 12,000hz. But as you can see from the frequency responses - both speakers give up in non-motor ways well before 5,500hz anyway - and by virtue of their cone sizes alone, directionality is going to start eating away at that frequency response somewhere more around 2khz-3khz anyway.

There's also some tie to efficiency, which I think shows true here - impedance really is resistance, just with frequency factored in (it's the AC term for that DC concept). The more resistance, the more current your amp has to push, also. We see the Exodus is a bit less efficient than the Dayton...

...and in a possibly very real way, that brings the amp into the equation. Amps aren't equally clean. They are usually more clean at lower volume levels (read: power output levels) than they are at higher levels. So, it's possible to have a speaker with more inductance.
So, slight advantage to the Dayton in theory, but another factor that I have to discount in practical application - especially since the Exodus handles nearly twice the power of the Dayton, to make up for (although probably also partially the cause of) the efficiency difference. That makes it a wash - as long as I have a clean amp of sufficient power.

I'm thinking it's pretty even, other than those BL and KMS plots, and the actual Xmax available. And there's a difference in price that probably even makes them quite equal in terms of bang-for-the-buck... the Anarchy are a little more capable, and cost a little more.

Not to over-analyze it or anything.

[Fasthotrod]

Have you considered these Morel's?

https://www.parts-express.com/morel-...4-ohm--297-100

[geolemon]

Have you considered these Morel's?

https://www.parts-express.com/morel-...4-ohm--297-100

Yes - no doubt those would sound awesome. Excellent midwoofer... Only 4.5mm Xmax means I'd be operating it closer to it's excursion limit than the higher throw woofers, and trust me I'm not doubting Morel's SQ - but if I'm spending the medium bucks on four - there's just so many great options out there.

If the inexpensive option doesn't work out, I could always revisit these.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

[geolemon]

I pulled the trigger!

I was pretty tempted by the Evil 6.5s - so many good features plus underhung... but no measurements makes me skeptical, and it doesn't matter anyway because they are out of stock until basically 2021.

Between the Dayton RS-180 and Exodus Anarchy, they were honestly way closer than I thought. For the extra technology and excursion advantage of the Anarchy, the Dayton have an even more proven track record, including use in a four-digit high-end home cabinet.

In the end, two things kept pulling on me:

1) From the OEM work that I've done with XBL subs back in the day, all the talks and engineering work with Dan Wiggins, I've always been an XBL fan, and really always been dying to play with some XBL midwoofers.

2) If they don't work out - I can make a subwoofer or two out of them for my house. Neither sound bar in my house has a sub yet. They'll be fun toys no matter what.
If the Dayton didn't work out... More clutter in my storage.

Also, reading - I don't recall if it was the Dayton or the Evil, but someone mentioned they heard chuffing from the air gap around the pole piece. I'm skeptical that's even true, but can't say I didn't think about it - and realized that I've only used drivers with phase plugs in midrange and up - never for high-excursion use.

So i pulled the trigger on four Exodus Anarchy.


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[ckirocz28]

I pulled the trigger!

I was pretty tempted by the Evil 6.5s - so many good features plus underhung... but no measurements makes me skeptical, and it doesn't matter anyway because they are out of stock until basically 2021.

Between the Dayton RS-180 and Exodus Anarchy, they were honestly way closer than I thought. For the extra technology and excursion advantage of the Anarchy, the Dayton have an even more proven track record, including use in a four-digit high-end home cabinet.

In the end, two things kept pulling on me:

1) From the OEM work that I've done with XBL subs back in the day, all the talks and engineering work with Dan Wiggins, I've always been an XBL fan, and really always been dying to play with some XBL midwoofers.

2) If they don't work out - I can make a subwoofer or two out of them for my house. Neither sound bar in my house has a sub yet. They'll be fun toys no matter what.
If the Dayton didn't work out... More clutter in my storage.

Also, reading - I don't recall if it was the Dayton or the Evil, but someone mentioned they heard chuffing from the air gap around the pole piece. I'm skeptical that's even true, but can't say I didn't think about it - and realized that I've only used drivers with phase plugs in midrange and up - never for high-excursion use.

So i pulled the trigger on four Exodus Anarchy.


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I'm probably going to get some of those, too. I really like my XBl^2 subs, and I really need a midbass to keep up with them, those are cheap enough to gamble on.