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Thread: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

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    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    I'm building one for me, my 2006 GMC crew cab is all stock with the BOSE system in it. I'm using a Pioneer AVH2500-NEX thinking about using Hertz Energy series components in the front and Diece series in the rear is my plan with a 5 channel amp and sub. But as I said, I'm open.

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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by dgage View Post
    The main difference is in usage. In general you need 3 or 4 speakers to handle the entire audio range in a vehicle.

    3 speakers (known as a 2-way)
    Tweeter roughly covers approximately 3,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz.
    Midrange roughly covers 80 Hz to 3,000 Hz
    Subwoofer roughly covers below 80 Hz

    4 speakers (known as a 3-way)
    Tweeter roughly covers approximately 3,500 Hz to 20,000 Hz
    Midrange roughly covers 80 Hz to 3,500 Hz
    Midbass roughly covers 350 Hz to 80 Hz
    Subwoofer roughly covers below 80 Hz

    A 3-way usually consists of a 1” tweeter, ~3” midrange, and 6-8” midbass. These speakers cover their audio ranges very well with no real compromises. But putting 3 speakers up front is more difficult and more expensive than a more straight forward 2-way.

    The challenge with 2-way is that it works the speakers closer to their limits. A 1” tweeter will usually struggle playing low enough to mate well with a 6.5” which may struggle to play high enough to mate with a 1” tweeter, cleanly at least. It can be done but a 2-way is a little harder to do correctly. Even speakers sold as a 2-way may not cover the frequency range completely as I’ve seen many sold where the overlap between the 2 speakers left a gap, at least regarding flat frequency response. One way to mitigate this is to go with a 1.5” tweeter. This is most easily communicated using Audiofrog as an example. For their high-end 3-way, they recommend the GB10 tweeter, GB25 midrange, and GB60 midbass. For 2-way, they recommend going with the slightly larger 1.5” GB15 tweeter to better mate up with their GB60 midrange/midbass.

    And to further answer your question, some 6.5” speakers are better at handling the midrange while others are a little better midbasses which means they are a little stronger below 150 Hz. Not as many 6.5” speakers are good handling both duties but they are out there.

    Really you just need to ask for a 6.5” that will work well in a 2-way setup with a 1” tweeter. I wouldn’t worry about the labels for midranges and midbasses that we’ve placed in them.
    This really covers it but I wanted to build on this ^^^

    Every speaker of every size can have different engineering goals-
    Frequency response is one.
    In fact, the very size of the speaker is unavoidably tied to one aspect of frequency response - directionality. At the frequency corresponding to the cone diameter, the speaker becomes increasingly directional, where the on-axis sound is way louder than the off-axis sound. That's where speaker aiming comes into play. So, for a larger 6.5" speaker, it becomes directional at a lower frequency than a 1" tweeter.
    ...and in fact it might become directional at a frequency lower than the tweeter can even start playing.

    Sometimes we can use this to an advantage in a car - we're obviously sitting closer to one side, so if we're listening to the off-axis response on the near side, and are closer to on-axis with the far side speaker, things can actually balance out, but note that it isn't a constant - at 800hz, that mid will NOT be directional... at 3000hz that mid WILL be directional.

    But let's step away from that for a second...
    Pretend you are the speaker engineer. We're way before installation, here. The engineer's boss wants him to design a 6.5" midbass, and a 6.5" midrange:

    So, the engineer might put a lighter cone and thinner gauge windings in the midrange, compared to the midbass. That's because we want finesse and detail from the midrange, and need it to be able to physically move fast enough for all the higher frequencies we expect it to play. Maybe we even add a shorting ring and a phase plug on the pole piece, to smooth inductance again for sound quality, and the phase plug helps extend those upper frequencies just ever so slightly, by blocking the cross-cone interferences that produce that directionality. Only extends it a little bit though.
    On the midbass however, the designer is thinking "bass"...
    Since on any given speaker, when you ask it to play lower, it needs to double it's excursion to play every octave lower you ask of it.... so the engineer also puts a longer winding on the midbass, which adds even more mass, as well as increasing the physical travel capabilities of the motor. That added mass might sound bad but it's not - it lowers the Fs of the speaker, so it naturally resonates lower, which improves bass extension.
    And for the suspension, the midbass needs more control - so it'll probably have a stiffer suspension. The midrange would have a softer one, but one that doesn't need as much excursion capability.

    So the engineer - even if they have some identical looking drivers from the outside, maybe even identical hard parts (basket, top plate, magnet, back plate/pole piece) has created:
    • a 6.5" midrange with a lower powerhandling but higher efficiency, higher Fs, lower Xmax, capable of playing a broad range of frequencies right up to where the tweeter is expected to pick up.
    • a 6.5" midbass with a higher powerhandling but lower Fs, lower efficiency from the extra mass so it needs that powerhandling, more excursion capability - to play bass, but this limits the higher frequency capability and detail.


    So you should be aware of these things as you shop.

    It's a good reason why shopping for already-paired components sets is a good idea. They are designed to work together, and especially the 2-way sets - that crossover point was likely painstakingly selected as the best compromise... not for your car specifically, but for stretching that tweeter as low as possible and stretching that mid as high as possible, so they do work together.

    And if you find you are lacking midbass -
    Well, first you actually want to make sure it's not just inherent in your vehicle and speaker locations (midbass nulls are a bitch).
    But you can take comfort in knowing that there are purpose-built midbass drivers that DO have more bass capability than your components, that you could add - with a bit more power - if needed... although you'll need a place for them.

    And there are some components sets that have great midbass response AND great detail - but now you get into some engineering compromises that might cost money to avoid. I always loved the K2Power setup when I sold Focal, it really struck the right place for me, between having 95% of the midrange detail I always wanted, and 95% of the midbass that I always wanted. Just truly excellent in both regards. But not cheap, either.

    So, even though all the things I mentioned DO have specs you can look for (Fs, Vas, Xmax, Qts) and manufacturers often also publish anechoic frequency response plots (including off-axis response) that you can use to shop - I always advocate letting your ears decide before pulling the trigger on a speaker purchase.
    More so for components then midbass - and you absolutely should walk around the speakers to listen for that off-axis response change.
    Last edited by geolemon; 06-05-2020 at 01:21 PM.

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    Noob Ge0's Avatar
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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyt View Post
    I did find several passive crossovers on www.woofersetc.com but I have no idea which ones to buy. There seem to be several from $70-$100 from Focal but I have no idea of which one to choose if I went that way, another conundrum, which one do I choose? UGH!!!!!
    Don't buy a random crossover. Crossovers are made to go with a specific speaker set. After reading many of your questions / comment I suggest you stick with a component set that is within your budget. Look at things such as the Audio Frog GS lineup, JL Audio, Alpine, etc...

    Ge0
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    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Yeah, I think that's what I'll do to make it easy. I was looking at your favorite Scan Speak last night, nice, but they don't sell crossovers either, I thought that to be odd, that way they could sell all three, midbass/range, tweeter and crossover.

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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyt View Post
    Yeah, I think that's what I'll do to make it easy. I was looking at your favorite Scan Speak last night, nice, but they don't sell crossovers either, I thought that to be odd, that way they could sell all three, midbass/range, tweeter and crossover.
    The idea with raw drivers is to design a crossover that meets your design goals. At least in a home speaker atmosphere. In a car most folks use active crossovers.

    Ge0
    Scanspeak - Dynaudio - Helix - Bose

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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ge0 View Post
    The idea with raw drivers is to design a crossover that meets your design goals. At least in a home speaker atmosphere. In a car most folks use active crossovers.

    Ge0
    Mikeyt - Those passive Xovers are way overpriced on woofersetc, except for a few - and they don't tell you the Xover point, so they are pretty useless for DIY IMO.

    It's possible to DIY a passive component set, there's just one area that I think you'll wind up in trouble...

    I mean, first off, it can be challenging to find a 6.5" and a tweeter that have frequency responses that even kiss each other, much less overlap. Even the on-axis response.
    Technically, you just need them to come together enough that there's a 6dB or less dip where their two frequency responses meet - but if there was a dip rather than an overlap, you'd need to find (or build) a Xover at EXACTLY that frequency.

    If there's an overlap... then life is a little easier, you can find a crossover that is anywhere in that overlap range and it'll work fine [factoring out any install or car-interior/speaker location preferences for having a higher or lower Xover point).

    Or you can build your own - it's not too hard if you can solder:
    Step 1: https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Cal...akerCrossover/
    Step 2: enter the impedence of your woofer and tweeter, and your desired Xover frequency (wherever they overlap). Pick 2nd order Butterworth or Linkwitz... I'd go butterworth if there's a dip between them, Linkwitz if there's an overlap, but that's just me. If you buy a component set you don't get to pick, so there's that...
    Step 3: click "calculate" and check out the schematic they give you.
    Step 4: Go buy the capacitors and inductors it tells you. I used to use Parts Express and Madisound. Yes, the poly caps sound nicer, but you don't need the crazy $60 ones. Yes, avoid the iron-core inductors unless you can't avoid it and are building a crossover for a subwoofer.
    Step 5: wait for UPS
    Step 6: solder them up.
    Step 7: forgot to buy a plastic box... go back to Parts Express or Amazon and Prime yourself a couple small plastic project boxes.
    Step 8: you get the idea.

    It's really as simple as soldering that up, and it's really as cheap as you see on Parts Express and Madisound. I'm guessing you'll be into it about $30. Maybe $35 or $40 with some plastic boxes.

    Where I said "I think you'll get into trouble"...

    ...the nice thing about buying component sets is that the tweeter and mids aren't just matched with overlapping frequencies, but they also are matched in efficiency. If you just randomly buy a tweeter, and a woofer - that tweeter could be more efficient (louder) than the woofer, or vice versa.
    That's not necessarily a big deal either, except figuring out HOW much louder might be.

    So of course there's another calculator... for this thing called an L-pad you can build just as simple as a crossover: https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Cal...onLPadCircuit/
    And that's just a matter of soldering resistors, which are dirt cheap. If you aren't sure how much you need to knock it down, buy resistors to build a 3dB, a 6dB, a 9dB... it'll still only cost you a few bucks.

    So - that's if you are crafty or want to learn to solder. It really isn't hard or expensive.

    Or like Ge0 says... go all active.
    It's more expensive from an amplifier perspective since you need 4 channels rather than 2, but amps are cheap these days, they have crossovers built in - and then you don't need to worry about the speaker matching as much. Tweeter too loud? Go turn those channels down on the amp... problem solved.

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    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Funny you say that Geo, I too noticed there were no xover points listed, that's odd, not sure why they wouldn't list them, that's like a necessary thing, right?...lol I thought about the full active thing, I thought about doing it kind of I guess using a DSP. I guess I'd set my amp to full range and dial it in through the DSP, not sure exactly where I'd set the amp xover. To note I am also going to have rear fill 5.25's as well. I probably won't build my own just yet, I've got more to learn first, but it's something I may do in the future in an experiment so if I screw it up, it won't be in my vehicle, I do a small box type monitor for my shed.

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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyt View Post
    Funny you say that Geo, I too noticed there were no xover points listed, that's odd, not sure why they wouldn't list them, that's like a necessary thing, right?...lol I thought about the full active thing, I thought about doing it kind of I guess using a DSP. I guess I'd set my amp to full range and dial it in through the DSP, not sure exactly where I'd set the amp xover. To note I am also going to have rear fill 5.25's as well. I probably won't build my own just yet, I've got more to learn first, but it's something I may do in the future in an experiment so if I screw it up, it won't be in my vehicle, I do a small box type monitor for my shed.
    Crossover points vary by specific driver and the environment the driver is mounted in. There is no pre-canned solution. Crossover points need to be selected based on overall frequency response on and off axis. Crossover point and slope need to be selected so the drivers blend in well together. Good raw driver suppliers will give you all the data you need to target initial crossover points. They will never give you specific frequencies. They may give you minimums but this is just to protect their product.

    You should do a search on HOW TO SELECT CROSSOVER POINTS and read a little. You will learn a lot.

    Ge0
    Scanspeak - Dynaudio - Helix - Bose

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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Sometimes it is better to remember that crossovers are nothing but High and Low pass filters. You need to adjust these filters so one driver blends in well with another as the useful frequency range of a speaker runs out.

    Ge0
    Scanspeak - Dynaudio - Helix - Bose

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    Re: What's the difference between mid bass and mid range, what should I buy?

    Yeah before I start doing anything when it comes to individual parts I will do that, too expensive not too...lol And want to maximize my result.

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