Widebands: Audiofrog GS25 and Hybrid Audio Technology Unity U2 comparison

[bnae38]

Speaker frequency response comparisons are always interesting. Post away! (If you're up for it)

[mauian]

A agree with Bnae38, nice work comparing the two. I’m a little stumped though on how you had a phase issue with the U2 but not the GS25 when there were in the same location. Maybe the back wave from the speaker wasn’t sealed off?

I’m stumped as well. With the U2’s I actually built a custom baffle that I think seals off the back waves better than what comes with the GS25 (with which I didn’t use any baffle, just the mounting hardware/tabs that come with it - which is great by the way).


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[mauian]

I'm still running my GS25's as well, even though these beautiful Hybrid Audio Technologies L3SE speakers are sitting here looking at me every day. :-) I'm sure I'll eventually give in and try them - and when I do, I'll be sure to post a similar comparison between the GS25 and L3SE.

I also ordered a new replacement C3CX coaxial for the one I damaged. Not sure if I'm going to keep them or sell them at this point (full working set now). May depend on how the GS25's work out (and/or the L3SE's). :-)

I'll probably get my GS690's installed first though - hopefully today (although, I said that last weekend as well). :-)

In the meantime, I do have un-EQ'd graphs of the G25's in my 2018 Challenger if anyone is interested. However, I don't normally test these small speakers without a high-pass filter applied, so my graphs are with a 400hz high-pass filter applied. I have similar un-EQ'd graphs for the Illusion Audio C3CX coaxials, Kenwood KFC-X3C 3.5" coaxials and maybe even the Infinity Reference 3.5" coaxials as well, if anyone is interested in seeing them. I also have graphs of the GS25's before and after I re-installed my dash panel (which has built in, somewhat restrictive speaker grilles).

I have TONS of measurements (never delete any of them). Could also post comparisons of a few different 6x9 midbass speakers as well (CDT CL-69S, Kenwood Excelon, Infinity Reference and soon Audiofrog GS690), if anyone is interested (would post in a different thread if so).

Let me know if anyone is interested - don't want to spend the time preparing all of this "stuff" if nobody is really interested. :-)

Yeah, definitely post the graphs you think illustrate differences or highlight strengths / weaknesses of the various speakers. I think they’d be helpful for anyone considering the speakers you have for a similar application.


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[mauian]

Nice comparison! I too would be interested in hearing your thoughts after you've spent some time and tuned the U2's.

Was there some reason that you decided to switch things up? Was there something about the GS25's that you thought was lacking? Or just bored and decided to try something new? :-)

I also recently installed the GS25's in my 2018 Challenger dash (stock speaker size is 3.5"). The difference with my setup is that I always had the vast majority of sound from from the dash. Before the GS25's, I always had 3.5" coaxials in the dash. The problem with 3.5" coaxials is that there are very few "higher end" 3.5" coaxial speakers on the market. Really, the only one I'm aware of is the Illusion Audio C3CX and they are a) hard to find, b) very expensive (~$700) and c) not very well "supported" by the company anymore. The "contact us" email address posted on the Illusion Audio website doesn't even work - and when I reached out to their "parent" company (ORCA), I never even got a response. I decided that I wanted to replace them after I had issues with one setting the high-pass filter on it to 275hz/24dB (even though Illusion Audio recommends 250hz/12dB).

So I just eplaced the C3CX 3.5" coaxials with the GS25's and I'll tell you what - I don't miss the tweeter at ALL so far. If I didn't know better, I would think that there was still a tweeter in the speaker under the factory dash speaker grille. Have been really impressed with the GS25 so far - I'm really surprised how well they handle the highs. I did need to boost the higher end, but the results are fantastic so far - using them in the stock dash speaker locations, which fire up into the windshield.

What is interesting is that I had originally bought some Hybrid Audio L3SE widebands to replace my C3CX speakers. However, due to the sellers situation, there was a delay before he could ship them - and in the meantime, I learned of the GS25's - so I decided to purchase a set of those to try while waiting for the L3SE's (I get next day delivery with Crutchfield, so I got them very quickly!). Now, I'm not so sure I've even going to try the L3SE's... I just hate tearing apart the interior more than I need to (in my experience it causes panels to "loosen" over time, which causes rattles, etc) - so I may just hang on to the L3SE's for a while until I get bored and want to try something new.... :-)


EDIT: Oh - that 4mm Xmax spec for the GS25 is hard to believe. I just don't see how that speaker cone can move 4mm when the GS690 is only 5mm. :-) I know that's what the specs say, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I noticed that the GS25 manual still had "GS40" printed on top of the specs page - I wonder if that spec is actually for the GS40? That being said, I'm not a speaker designer, so maybe it really is 4mm - just seems awful high to me based on the rubber surround, etc (I'm assuming higher xmax usually is related to a "bigger" rubber surround - so the speaker has the ability to "move" more?).

Just to end the debate on if the 4mm xmax is real for the GS25, this is directly from Andy:

“The coil and top plate are the same dimensions as the GB25. It is not a typo.”

Also Nick has mentioned that the motor on the GS25 is the same as in the GB25.

The xmax for the GB25 is also 4mm (same as the GS25).

Pretty awesome!


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[SkizeR]

EDIT: Oh - that 4mm Xmax spec for the GS25 is hard to believe. I just don't see how that speaker cone can move 4mm when the GS690 is only 5mm. :-) I know that's what the specs say, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I noticed that the GS25 manual still had "GS40" printed on top of the specs page - I wonder if that spec is actually for the GS40? That being said, I'm not a speaker designer, so maybe it really is 4mm - just seems awful high to me based on the rubber surround, etc (I'm assuming higher xmax usually is related to a "bigger" rubber surround - so the speaker has the ability to "move" more?).

The gs25 has the same motor as the gb25, which also has 4mm 1 way xmax. If you look up how xmax is measured, you will see how it can make sense. That said, the klippel measurements show it to be correct.

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[jtrosky]

I think maybe I'm confusing the "Xmax" spec with the "Xmech" spec, as pointed out by another user in another thread.

I was associating the "size" of the rubber surround with the Xmax spec - but I *think* (?) that the size of the rubber surround is more associated with the "Xmech" spec?

Like I mentioned, the only reason that I questioned the 4mm Xmax spec was based solely on the "size" of the rubber surround on the GS25 compared to the "size" of the rubber surround on the GS690, which was an Xmax spec of 5mm. It just didn't "compute" how the GS25 cone could move up to 4mm when the GS690 cone could only move up to 5mm, even though it has a substantially "bigger" rubber surround - most likely because I didn't understand the Xmax spec.

I was just assuming that the size of the rubber surround was related to the Xmax spec in some way - but it sounds like that is not necessarily the case. I think. :-)

So if I understand this, the Xmax spec is more related to the capability of the speaker motor - but it sounds like the rubber surround could limit the cone movement to less than the Xmax spec?

Is it safe to say that while the GS25 is *capable* of 4mm Xmax, it would probably never *actually* move that far, due to Xmech limitations?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of these specs and how they work and relate to the physical aspects of the speakers - and I appreciate any and all input!

Thank you!

[JCsAudio]

I'm still running my GS25's as well, even though these beautiful Hybrid Audio Technologies L3SE speakers are sitting here looking at me every day. :-) I'm sure I'll eventually give in and try them - and when I do, I'll be sure to post a similar comparison between the GS25 and L3SE.

I also ordered a new replacement C3CX coaxial for the one I damaged. Not sure if I'm going to keep them or sell them at this point (full working set now). May depend on how the GS25's work out (and/or the L3SE's). :-)

I'll probably get my GS690's installed first though - hopefully today (although, I said that last weekend as well). :-)

In the meantime, I do have un-EQ'd graphs of the G25's in my 2018 Challenger if anyone is interested. However, I don't normally test these small speakers without a high-pass filter applied, so my graphs are with a 400hz high-pass filter applied. I have similar un-EQ'd graphs for the Illusion Audio C3CX coaxials, Kenwood KFC-X3C 3.5" coaxials and maybe even the Infinity Reference 3.5" coaxials as well, if anyone is interested in seeing them. I also have graphs of the GS25's before and after I re-installed my dash panel (which has built in, somewhat restrictive speaker grilles).

I have TONS of measurements (never delete any of them). Could also post comparisons of a few different 6x9 midbass speakers as well (CDT CL-69S, Kenwood Excelon, Infinity Reference and soon Audiofrog GS690), if anyone is interested (would post in a different thread if so).

Let me know if anyone is interested - don't want to spend the time preparing all of this "stuff" if nobody is really interested. :-)

Post up those graphs. This is the perfect thread to do that.

[jtrosky]

I should probably start a separate thread for these graphs, but here are the first "comparison graphs" - these are for 6x9's. Kenwood (midbass from KFC-XP6903C), CDT Audio (CL-69S) and AudioFrog (GS690).

Obviously, this is just the frequency response in *my* car - with no crossovers or EQ applied. I matched the level of each based on the levels at 40hz. Obviously, these graphs do not compare sensitivity since I altered the levels to match them up. Surprisingly, I think the CDT CL-69S speakers have the best un-EQ'd response out of the three. They have broken in nicely. Hard to believe I only paid $99 for those speakers, especially considering their build quality....

They are all surprisingly similar up to about 400hz - then they start differing from there.

Left Door

Note: Unfortunately, I haven't installed the AudioFrog GS690 in my left door yet - will probably do that this weekend (waiting on NVX silicone baffles). So I can only compare the Kenwood and CDT in the left door.



Right Door



Obviously, not any "Scientific" data here, but interesting nonetheless. I'll try to put together something similar for my dash speakers (C3CX coaxials, AF GS25 and HAT L3SEs) relatively soon.

While I have tons of measurements, I didn't always document the exact parameters of them (xover freqs, levels, etc)...

[mauian]

Interesting. Do you happen to have the published frequency response graphs for comparison? I found it interesting to see how the car changes things for each speaker. It potentially can help show how well that speaker was engineered for that location/application (at least in your car). Like does the CDT graph look a bit less flat or optimal in its published graph but when in your car door it ends up looking better? Or on paper, did it always look a little better?


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[jtrosky]

Interesting. Do you happen to have the published frequency response graphs for comparison? I found it interesting to see how the car changes things for each speaker. It potentially can help show how well that speaker was engineered for that location/application (at least in your car). Like does the CDT graph look a bit less flat or optimal in its published graph but when in your car door it ends up looking better? Or on paper, did it always look a little better?


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Actually, only one of those speakers actually publish a response graph (the Audiofrog GS690). None to be found for the others.

Although, I've personally never found the published graphs very useful. In my experience, the in-car response is *so* different, that I tend to ignore the published measurements since they are always measured directly in front the speaker, under perfect conditions - and the same speaker will have a VERY different response in every different car.

Maybe it's me, but I feel published response graphs are more appropriate for in-home speakers - they seem pretty useless for in-car use.

Here are a few specs that I can compare though:

Sensitivity

- Kenwood: 84 dB/ W / m
- CDT: 89.4 dB
- Audiofrog: 92 dB (2.83 V/1 M)

Magnet Weight

- Kenwood: 14.5 oz
- CDT: 27 oz
- Audiofrog: Not published

Power Handling

- Kenwood: 100W RMS (300W peak)
- CDT: 80W RMS (180W peak)
- Audiofrog: 100W RMS (300W peak)

Frequency Response

- Kenwood: 45hz - 23,000khz (woofer response not listed separately, just along with 3.5" coaxial dash speaker)
- CDT: 42hz - 7,000hz
- Audiofrog: 42hz - 5,000hz

Xmax

- Kenwood: Not published
- CDT: 10mm (Peak)
- Audiofrog: 5mm (1-way linear)

Mounting Depth

- Kenwood: 2.75"
- CDT: 2.87"
- Audiofrog: 2.88"

Retail Price*

- Kenwood (KFC-XP6903C component set): $219.99 (include 6x9 midbass and 3.5" coaxial and in-line crossovers)
- CDT: $189 (frequently on-sale between $100 and $110 on CDT's site)
- Audiofrog: $329.99

* Prices taken from Crutchfield for Kenwood and Audiofrog and from the CDT website for the CDT speakers.