Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 85

Thread: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

  1. Back To Top    #31

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    Quote Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
    And this is the one where he has two options for a polarity inversion and more delay or less delay without a phase inversion I was referring to... I would recommend watching the whole lot of videos as a learning tool, it is easier if you can play and test stuff, but you will get the idea about this powerful tool and what info it gives

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...vaN7W4sl2DGTCl
    Awesome. Thanks for sharing


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. Back To Top    #32
    Noob Cathul's Avatar
    Real Name
    Peter
    Location
    Leipzig, Germany
    Vehicle
    Ford Mustang GT Premium
    Posts
    136
    Join Date
    Apr 2020

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    Those links to the videos about the Smaart software are really good, but unfortunately out of reach for me right now.
    Remeasured system today again while shifting the acoustical xover bass to midbass up to 80 Hz from 63Hz before.
    Better bass integration this way, but still have to flip the phase/polarity on the midbass to get a good summing (around 5db) between subs and midbass and decent (up to 4db) summing between midbass and tweeters.
    Checked delay again with both tape measure and impulse responses and they are good as far as i can tell.

    brown is left, green is right side with 1/12th octave smoothing.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	left_right_full.JPG 
Views:	185 
Size:	168.5 KB 
ID:	11330
    SYNC3 headunit
    Mosconi Pico 8/10 DSP
    Mosconi D2 500.1
    Gladen Zero Pro 165.3 DC
    JL Audio 10w3v3 in custom enclosure (Blueprint by Mark @Caraudiofabrication)

  3. Back To Top    #33
    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
    Real Name
    Jacob
    Location
    Phoenix
    Vehicle
    2014 F150 Limited
    Posts
    1,055
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    I just had the opportunity to use smaart on my truck last night...all I can say is wow...I have never had a better sounding system. My EQ part was done, but getting the phase to line up between crossovers and speaker pairs made such a huge difference. There is now no more guess work on if each speaker is phase aligned to the best it can be..it is.

    It took a little more work than anticipated after discovering my calibrated dayton umm-6 microphone seems to have an issue that needs more investigating to make sure it is the microphone and not the computer...but I am doubtful it is the computer. I was always having an issue with my door speakers and not getting them to play much below 100hz...well when measured last night with different microphones my door speakers were suprisingly fairly flat down to 20hz (peerless sls 6")...clearly I have some microphone issue...With that discovery of the microphone issue, it made more sense why my phase was off as much as it was...at least to me.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

  4. Back To Top    #34
    Noob Cathul's Avatar
    Real Name
    Peter
    Location
    Leipzig, Germany
    Vehicle
    Ford Mustang GT Premium
    Posts
    136
    Join Date
    Apr 2020

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    I believe that, but unfortunately i only have an USB mic (UMIK-1) and cannot spend that amount of money on new equipment and software only to measure my own system. SMAART is around 1000,-- € over here plus a new soundcard, mic and all the cabling.
    If only i could find a hint or manual on how to do that with REW and an USB microphone. All the tutorials and videos i found didn't help in that regard...
    SYNC3 headunit
    Mosconi Pico 8/10 DSP
    Mosconi D2 500.1
    Gladen Zero Pro 165.3 DC
    JL Audio 10w3v3 in custom enclosure (Blueprint by Mark @Caraudiofabrication)

  5. Back To Top    #35

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    I just had the opportunity to use smaart on my truck last night...all I can say is wow...I have never had a better sounding system. My EQ part was done, but getting the phase to line up between crossovers and speaker pairs made such a huge difference. There is now no more guess work on if each speaker is phase aligned to the best it can be..it is.

    It took a little more work than anticipated after discovering my calibrated dayton umm-6 microphone seems to have an issue that needs more investigating to make sure it is the microphone and not the computer...but I am doubtful it is the computer. I was always having an issue with my door speakers and not getting them to play much below 100hz...well when measured last night with different microphones my door speakers were suprisingly fairly flat down to 20hz (peerless sls 6")...clearly I have some microphone issue...With that discovery of the microphone issue, it made more sense why my phase was off as much as it was...at least to me.
    it is a game changer, matching side to side and between sub, midbass and mids is awesome, it does indeed change how you hear (or don’t I find) the stereo as a whole

  6. Back To Top    #36

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    Doesn't the Dirac Live system handle all of this phase-related stuff for you automatically? As much as I like my Helix, I'm really starting to wonder if I should have just went with a MiniDSP DiracLive-enabled DSP. :-) Let it handle this kind of stuff. Unfortunately, the Smaart system is just too expensive for most DIY'ers - especially if a DiracLive-enabled MiniDSP (which is less expensive) will handle all of this for you automatically - and includes the DSP hardware as well. :-)

  7. Back To Top    #37

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    I was able to progress a bit more in my most recent tune and I can confirm that the method for evaluating and fixing phase issues between drivers that Skiz outlined 100% works and is awesome. (Obviously a lot of you already knew that but I wanted to show my results as an example for those that are working through it)

    I found that my wideband and mid bass were out of phase on the left side (with a big negative cancellation in the crossover region) and a simple flip of polarity of the mid bass fixed it.

    My sub was a bit more challenging. I have it downfiring now (thanks to one of Erin’s videos where afterwards I verified in REW that my sub had better output when downfiring) and tried my best to measure to the voicecoil for time alignment but something was a bit off still. The summation was only ~3 dB across the crossover. I thought about trying an all pass filter but I honestly don’t know how best to use those yet so I tried sliding the phase slider in the helix processor and landed at a setting of 50 degrees where when I measured I got an almost perfect 6 dB rise at the crossover with seemingly no ill effects elsewhere.

    The imaging of the bass upfront is the best it’s ever been. Skiz’s video was indeed a two for one as getting this right helps so much in that regard.

    Below are my measurements of the right and left individual drivers, sub, and the R and L sides each playing with the sub all together. The crossover region with my wideband and mid bass is summing nicely to ~6 dB as well.

    My measurements are dropping off a bit more than my target curve above 6 kHz but I like the way it’s sounding.

    My setup is an active 2-way with Audiofrog GS25 and Peerless SLS 6.5” up front and a JL 10TW3 for a sub.



    Still interested in learning SMAART however. If any of you can post some of your tips on using it that would be awesome...perhaps in a different thread.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. Back To Top    #38

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    Quote Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
    Doesn't the Dirac Live system handle all of this phase-related stuff for you automatically? As much as I like my Helix, I'm really starting to wonder if I should have just went with a MiniDSP DiracLive-enabled DSP. :-) Let it handle this kind of stuff. Unfortunately, the Smaart system is just too expensive for most DIY'ers - especially if a DiracLive-enabled MiniDSP (which is less expensive) will handle all of this for you automatically - and includes the DSP hardware as well. :-)
    As far as I know you still need to setup crossovers and time alignment (That’s what smaart helps you to do with ease for mids, midbass and subs), the Dirac live can correct phase and response to a degree, but what it can’t do is fix install related phase issues with reflections, as any correction is applied to the direct and the reflected sound so the net result is still a phase issue that you can hear

  9. Back To Top    #39
    Noob Cathul's Avatar
    Real Name
    Peter
    Location
    Leipzig, Germany
    Vehicle
    Ford Mustang GT Premium
    Posts
    136
    Join Date
    Apr 2020

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    In the past few days i tried a lot of things to get a better summing at the crossover between midbass and tweeter.
    Acoustical crossover is at 2300 Hz.

    I tried nulling with phase switching, impulse response and "brute force" by going 0.4ms (should be a bit more than one full cycle on the tweeters and a xover frequency at 2300Hz) up and down in the smallest steps possible with the Mosconi D2 100.4 DSP amplifier (0.02ms) from the calculated time delay values from Jazzis spreadsheet after measuring the distance again from the tip of the microphone to each speaker. After measuring i checked the polarity of the drivers with a polarity checker. Polarity was uniform on all drivers.
    Never, not even once was i able to get a 6db sum on either side between midbass and tweeter. Most i could get were the current 4db i have right now.
    Now i start wondering if adding a dedicated midrange would help me as the midrange is much nearer to the tweeter than the midbass.

    Current locations of the drivers in my S550 Mustang are the original locations midbass down low in the doors and tweeters in the stock A-pillar location.

    Don't get me wrong. It sounds great right now. Very good staging, strong bass/midbass integration and overall sound, but the missing 2db really nug me.
    SYNC3 headunit
    Mosconi Pico 8/10 DSP
    Mosconi D2 500.1
    Gladen Zero Pro 165.3 DC
    JL Audio 10w3v3 in custom enclosure (Blueprint by Mark @Caraudiofabrication)

  10. Back To Top    #40

    Re: Summing at crossover - LR24db/BU24db

    Quote Originally Posted by Cathul View Post
    In the past few days i tried a lot of things to get a better summing at the crossover between midbass and tweeter.
    Acoustical crossover is at 2300 Hz.

    I tried nulling with phase switching, impulse response and "brute force" by going 0.4ms (should be a bit more than one full cycle on the tweeters and a xover frequency at 2300Hz) up and down in the smallest steps possible with the Mosconi D2 100.4 DSP amplifier (0.02ms) from the calculated time delay values from Jazzis spreadsheet after measuring the distance again from the tip of the microphone to each speaker. After measuring i checked the polarity of the drivers with a polarity checker. Polarity was uniform on all drivers.
    Never, not even once was i able to get a 6db sum on either side between midbass and tweeter. Most i could get were the current 4db i have right now.
    Now i start wondering if adding a dedicated midrange would help me as the midrange is much nearer to the tweeter than the midbass.

    Current locations of the drivers in my S550 Mustang are the original locations midbass down low in the doors and tweeters in the stock A-pillar location.

    Don't get me wrong. It sounds great right now. Very good staging, strong bass/midbass integration and overall sound, but the missing 2db really nug me.
    polarity of drivers with a pop checking method doesn’t mean the sound they produce will be in phase with other drivers through the crossovers, for example mine are connected electrical in phase, however I then flip the phase on midbass and tweeters even though I’m using measured 24db slopes to get them to sum as best as I can

    i get why you’d do it on a new install as a check, but after that point it bears little relation to actual phase in a vehicle if that makes sense... I’ve seen you say you’ve measured it a few times, but that is not important unless you are trouble shooting... in theory it’s good... but in practice it’s not really relevant if you would

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Back To Top