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Thread: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

  1. Back To Top    #21

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    This install is looking retro-awesome already (being a guy from the 90's).
    Waveguides and at least some discussion of large-cone IB subs, I feel like you are just one giant turbocharger short of Richard Clark's famously undefeated Grand National SQ champion car!

    Since you can't go IB or Aperiodic (his was technically AP), and since you already own some pretty awesome monster cone subs, I feel like I might have a great suggestion here. Or maybe two:

    Option A) Clamshell isobaric.
    Kicker's Solobaric subs really were the industry game-changers. Before that, boxes needed to be "Oh my god, how big?" to perform well. After the Solobaric high-mass, low compliance, high-motor-strength recipe hit, everyone started making "small box subs". Today it's hard to find anything but that.
    I say that, because when I started, just about every other install I did was isobaric, purely to get the box size down. That need really went away after "small box subs", so isobaric installs all but disappeared.

    Bear in mind it's not just space savings - there's SQ benefits here as well, at least if you clamshell them face-to-face (the easiest way). Because in that orientation, you always have one sub moving forward, and one sub moving backwards, you completely iron out any non-linearities of the suspension (half-roll surround moves differently "in" vs "out", cup spider can also show differences), essentially creating a perfect suspension.

    And the thought of two 15's in a box in a Scion might be laughable - I'm guessing 6 cubic feet (3 each), even sealed? (I did no modeling! Pure guess)
    Well, if you do a clamshell isobaric box, that turns into 1.5 cu.ft and you'll get exactly the same response curve. It's half the enclosure size of one sub - or 1/4 the enclosure size that the two subs would need.

    The ONLY downside that I can think of is that you only get the SPL of a single cone, because you've essentially coupled both motors and suspensions to one cone, so you have one super-controlled single cone stimulating the air...
    But is that really a downside? You've got two 15's - so it'll be as loud as a single 15 in a Scion hatch, and that's still potentially huge output - and it'll sound better than these subs even can sound on their own.

    The old argument against isobaric used to also be "you have to buy two subs", "you have to power two subs"...
    ...but in this case, you already own two subs, and their power. This is the "free" option.

    Option B) Passive Radiator
    Again, I'm thinking of your available space - in this case, this would be the "more SPL/lower SQ" option, but still should be pretty good for SQ if you can dial in the PR's.
    Run a single 15" sub, but this time with passive radiators to make the box tiny.

    Specifically, I'm thinking of this: https://www.amazon.com/Earthquake-So.../dp/B06WWDYV7T
    I don't own that specifically, but I do own those passive radiators. They are impressive in their excursion capability, easy to add/remove mass for tuning via a bolt, and this arrangement is super-clever. It ends up looking like a slot vent, hiding the PRs inside the box so you don't need so much surface area.

    In this case you would sell one of your subs... you'd have to buy this, and you'll have to do a little modeling (I have the spec sheet for the PR's, I'd be glad to share), but passive radiator boxes can also be tiny - I'm thinking also in the 1.5 cu.ft. realm (again, I haven't done any modeling, just educated guessing). They don't make a 15" PR, but the dual-12 PR should be enough surface area to allow enough PR excursion to match the displacement of a huge 15.
    It's the "higher SQ" version of a vented box, if you will, since there's no port noise.

    Option C) Both
    Like always, there's always options to go crazy, to push more purely into the SQL realm (isobaric sealed box), to push more into the SPL realm (isobaric vented box), or somewhere in between (passive radiator), even a super tiny option (isobaric passive radiator combo).

    Don't be afraid to model isobaric - most software allows you to do it. WinISD does, including "isobaric" and "PR" at the same time.
    If you use something that doesn't - just edit/save a second copy of your subwoofer driver file with the VAS cut in half. Now you are modeling an isobaric pair, rather than the single version of that subwoofer.
    Pretty easy.

    Can't wait to see how this turns out... wish I could hear it, I've never so much as seen waveguides before, though I own some horns for home use. Was always curious how they compare.
    If you are anywhere near Buffalo NY, I'd be glad to help.

  2. Back To Top    #22

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
    I have my two Fi ib3 15'' sitting around now. I looked around the vehicle on where i could possible use them...
    Sorry, this was really what I was responding to here - I missed the detail that they were specifically IB subs. That doesn't entirely change my post above...

    But it's important to note - IB subs usually have a higher Qts and a larger Vas, so that means it's more of a big-box sealed-compatible sub, if you weren't using it for IB.
    (and again - I haven't looked up any specs - that's just how IB subs are, so you should confirm that what I'm saying is true)

    So my amendment here is - the vented, and even the PR options are probably out the window. Check the EBP but I bet it's going to be under 50, and I can tell you don't want it sounding sloppy.

    However, the isobaric sealed option might absolutely be perfect - those subs would shine in that, keep box size down... and still get loud, and still have full efficiency (same power as you were running).
    Model it up and you'll see. Their "ideal" sealed might be a little bigger than I was originally thinking, but isobaric does a great job shrinking things down, of course.

    EDIT: I did check WinISD, and unfortunately Fi subs aren't listed there. Do you have the Qts, Fs, and Vas by chance?
    Last edited by geolemon; 06-23-2020 at 11:22 AM.

  3. Back To Top    #23

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon View Post
    Sorry, this was really what I was responding to here - I missed the detail that they were specifically IB subs. That doesn't entirely change my post above...

    But it's important to note - IB subs usually have a higher Qts and a larger Vas, so that means it's more of a big-box sealed-compatible sub, if you weren't using it for IB.
    (and again - I haven't looked up any specs - that's just how IB subs are, so you should confirm that what I'm saying is true)

    So my amendment here is - the vented, and even the PR options are probably out the window. Check the EBP but I bet it's going to be under 50, and I can tell you don't want it sounding sloppy.

    However, the isobaric sealed option might absolutely be perfect - those subs would shine in that, keep box size down... and still get loud, and still have full efficiency (same power as you were running).
    Model it up and you'll see. Their "ideal" sealed might be a little bigger than I was originally thinking, but isobaric does a great job shrinking things down, of course.

    EDIT: I did check WinISD, and unfortunately Fi subs aren't listed there. Do you have the Qts, Fs, and Vas by chance?
    T/s specs listed on site. Unfortunately. Im on the other side of the states from you Oregon based. I think two sundown sd3 shallow mounts in fiberglass enclosures in the quarter panels should be enough output. If not. Ill just go with a traditional box and something like an SSA Icon or xcon.

    https://ficaraudio.com/product/ib3-series-ib315-v2/

  4. Back To Top    #24

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    Two little subs up front could be pretty cool - I definitely spotted that you have a stick, so make sure to take care of the possibility of a foot slipping off a clutch pedal (says this guy who used to autocross his very much manual-transmission '95 supercharged Civic).

    Here's a plot if you did want to augment them with the 15 - or since you have the amp and subs already, could include the amp with an XT-60 connector for a removable sub box (basically my plan):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Basically, the red line is 2 cu.ft. for the isobaric pair, the blue is 3 cu.ft., the green is 4 cu.ft. which is already starting to get large, and only gives a Qtc of 0.9.
    That's really not bad though - honestly I'd model this up with all the specs (I only used the basic three), check out how excursion varies by power on this - you are going to DSP them anyway.

    Might be a little extra something for the hatch when you aren't using it for cargo, unless you are tossing or selling the 15's.

    I'm sure the subs aren't light, but 2 cu.ft. would be pretty reasonable for a removable enclosure... 4 starts to get pretty big and awkward, for that kind of thing, IMO anyway.

  5. Back To Top    #25
    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    It's funny you Mention Richard Clark's car. I got the chance at a show back in 90-91 somewhere around there to sit in it and he gave me a demo and it was something else I can say. I didn't know how good a car could sound. It was uncanningly clear and I felt like the sound surrounded me like a warm blanket and I had the super satiated feeling of joy in an inexplicable way. I have no idea what he had in it, I just remember the steering wheel controls he made for it since that wasn't a thing back then. I almost forgot about that.

  6. Back To Top    #26

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    How awesomely lucky. I not only haven't heard Richard Clark's car, but there's no HCLD's anywhere around me.
    Closest I get is regular horn drivers I bought from Parts Express.
    ...and I mean... they are good... but that is NOT close to "undefeated world class IASCA champion" legend.

  7. Back To Top    #27

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    speaker and dsp technology's come a long way in the 35 years since richard clark's car. some of the sound basics still hold true. i've had horn cars for the better part of the last 25 years. horns mean high-efficiency drivers for matching dynamics. high-efficiency drivers mean larger drivers for a given frequency range. vehicles have largely remained the same size, finding space for larger drivers in the kicks or doors can be a challenge. also fighting beaming angles for the larger drivers.

    i think mikey's model of using 8-10s in the doors w/ 5s in the kicks, combined with horns, seems to be good enough. however there's still some high frequency horn roll-off like wideband drivers which may or may not be solved.

    over the last 5 years, i've moved to 3-way mb/mid/tw and had remarkable increases in sound quality.

    i've been tempted to go back to horns with what i've learned over the last 5 years, but that's a lot of work/money

  8. Back To Top    #28

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    i should also add that horns themselves weren't really the problem (except for the roll-off). the challenges for me were maintaining good stage and midbass. the mikey approach seems most ideal while trying to work with horns.

    the value proposition for a mikey approach seems really low for me given what i know now and what i've been able to achieve with a traditional 3-way setup.

  9. Back To Top    #29

    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    Definitely not comparing my efforts to Richard Clark. But I ran Eric Steven's large format horns in my Ram truck with his normal not more expensive ultra drivers. Had either some Beyma's or one of those pro-audio mid bass 8" in the doors and a single 12" in a console box, being driven from a P99rs head unit.
    So, nice setup for the time, but not a full fledged helix nor did I have as much tuning experience. Horns were crossed around 800, and mid bass/sub was around 100 Hz. I can't hear above 10k so the fact that the horns rolled off at 12k didn't bother me.

    It sounded clear and staged pretty well. Not as well as tweets/mids on the pillar, or even dash mids and pillar tweets, but pretty well. Amazingly well if you looked down and saw the horn bodies under the dash.

    Again it sounded clear, and to this day was still the loudest without distortion system I've built. But I don't like to listen to super loud music, trying to save what's left of my hearing. That being said, maybe it was the tune, maybe it was my amps (though I'm not a big believer in large sonic differences between amps) but it never sounded as nice as the systems I"ve built with cones since then. Again my experience improves with every setup, but I lived with that system for a long time. And during quiet listening session it just never had that break a smile out on my face magic realism experience. I tended to blame the pro-audio drivers running up to 800Hz as I never felt like they were that musical, but that's also how I felt about the horns too. The drivers were pretty high in the door though.
    ]
    Anyway, point being, the horns were cool and had advantages but I would only recommend them to a friend if they wanted a very loud, clear, SQL type system. My current cone vehicles I go out 2-3 times a week and listen to music and sometimes have a hard time getting out of the car, with the right source they can just transport me, and my particular horn system never did that for me.

    I mean I've seen some of the highest end home audio in the work with horns, I understand the advantages, but if I were to run them again I'd use them as low crossed tweeters and throw some mids in the equation, but then, I wouldn't do that because I"d just run dome tweeters

    FWIW.Click image for larger version. 

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  10. Back To Top    #30
    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: From Camry to Scion. Here we go.

    Geo, what is an HCLD? Yeah his car was an experience, it was a surrounding of sound, it was being in the center of a symphony and every instrument was playing all around you everywhere. Didn't matter what direction you turned to look to find a speaker, they were not there, I feel like they were everywhere. I was immersed in an experience that I was not prepared for. I wonder what happened to that car if it's in a museum or something.

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