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Thread: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

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    Noob blacknteal831's Avatar
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    Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    Hi, I'm new here. I own a 2017 Ford F150 with a base model radio (4.2" screen) and have been planning on doing some upgrades to the stock system. I've never been in a vehicle with a truly upgraded sound system besides ones put in by the factory, but have never been particularly satisfied by the sound I've heard from those. At the same time, I definitely wouldn't consider myself a super SQ/hi-fi kind of person (I couldn't tell the difference I think), but I'm not just a straight bass head either despite my music choices. I'd like to be able to bump some tunes if I wanted to, but I'm mainly looking for good quality sound first. I listen to a lot of rap, electronic and hard rock/metal from the late 90s/early 2000's through today, but my mood changes and I could be listening to Clint Mansell or Led Zeppelin and The Doors.

    On that note, I've already purchased a set of Morel Tempo Ultra 6x9 components for the front stage, and am pretty sold on a Sundown Audio SD4 10 or 12" sealed for the sub. The box size is a bit in the air, but that I'm not as concerned about at the moment (it will be no bigger than 1 cu ft sealed though). I plan to either run active from a 4 channel amplifier to the woofer and tweeter and use my 2 rear channel from the trucks rear doors for the subwoofer amp, or possibily bridging the 4 channel and using the stock crossovers that came with my Morels (still the same plan for the sub). Plus deadening and decoupling the doors (not sure if I plan to add MLV still). My issue is settling on what amplifiers to use for my set up. I have read on some forums dedicated to my truck that there's been issues with the auto stop-start feature causing amps to shut off or causing popping noises on speakers, so this was something I was keeping in mind.

    I originally was planning on using a Zapco ST-4X SQ and Zapco ST-850XM, along with an auto stop-start eliminator, but read some more recent reviews about some poor build quality out of the Zapcos (well after the questions concerning them being overrated a couple years ago).

    This lead me to looking at the Helix M Four and M One or M One X amplifiers, given they are designed to work with the stop-start feature. Of course, this is also a pretty significant price jump, but I'm ok paying once and getting better quality. I also have been eyeing the Helix G Five as a simple all in one solution, plus an A-B front stage.

    My questions come down to a few aspects about what should my setup be. How much power I should be providing to the SD4 (600W RMS rated)? I have read a lot about providing extra headroom, so I've been looking at amps in the 600-850W range, but am not sure if I need to use that extra power, mainly considering the price (I haven't been able to find a price online for the M One X, but I have to imagine it's at a minimum $600, if not more, given the $400 price I've seen for the M One). If 600W should be plenty, I could just get the G Five and call it good, or the M Four+M One.

    If I really should be providing some extra power to the sub, that would eliminate the G Five and the M One as options though, but then I was wondering if there's any reason why I can't use something like the Kicker 46CXA800.1 for my mono amp in conjunction with the Helix M Four. I contacted Kicker first to verify the amp shouldn't have issues with stop-start vehicles either. Would I be making a mistake by using the Kicker?

    Thanks for any help!

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    Get whatever you can afford. I am assuming you have a helix dealer around you to pick up those amps if thats the route.

    The pioneer gm digital series amps get decent reviews too for their price.
    https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...Digital+Series

    Also the nvx series amps are decent too for the price and usually put out quite a bit more power than rated and a fairly compact
    https://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_...mplifiers.html

    Personally I like to pick up used amps that are good. I got my alpine pdx-v9 and pdx-f6 for under $450 for both. Plenty of options on the used side for good amps. I see the pdx amps pop up semi regularly for the $250-$300 price range as well as comparable amps around the same price from whatever brand you want.

    Also note, with an F150, you are going to be limited on space depending on what options are on your truck. My rear wall has a lot of electronics mounted to it that needed to be relocated or worked around.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Noob blacknteal831's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    Get whatever you can afford. I am assuming you have a helix dealer around you to pick up those amps if thats the route.

    The pioneer gm digital series amps get decent reviews too for their price.
    https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...Digital+Series

    Also the nvx series amps are decent too for the price and usually put out quite a bit more power than rated and a fairly compact
    https://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_...mplifiers.html

    Personally I like to pick up used amps that are good. I got my alpine pdx-v9 and pdx-f6 for under $450 for both. Plenty of options on the used side for good amps. I see the pdx amps pop up semi regularly for the $250-$300 price range as well as comparable amps around the same price from whatever brand you want.

    Also note, with an F150, you are going to be limited on space depending on what options are on your truck. My rear wall has a lot of electronics mounted to it that needed to be relocated or worked around.
    Ah yeah, technically I could afford Mosconi amps if I wait long enough and save up the money! I am a few months off from getting everything together still. As long as nothing comes up I'll have the ~$2 grand I've budgeted out for the project by the end of summer, but it's not a strict limit. I am looking at getting the amp for the front stage soon as I'm ordering my dampening materials this week.

    As far as a dealer, I haven't contacted any of those listed with MSC-America, but they list several shops near me in over in San Jose. Simplicity in Sound has been recommended to me before in Milpitas, though they don't list Helix or Audiotec Fischer as brands on their website so I do need to reach out and find out who carries that amps.

    I guess I'm more questioning whether I should be providing more power for my sub stage than RMS, or whether I'd be ok with just the RMS rated power. Probably have done too much reading on this, I've seen recommendations for everything from run the recommended box size and 600W only, where others have put the 12" sub in a smaller sealed box (.8 cu ft unloaded) and fed it with a 1000W amp. Just not sure if there's a solid recommendation one way or the other on how much wattage I should be providing.

    And thankfully I've already verified that I don't have much going on back there besides the 110V inverter being mounted under the rear passenger seat of my scab. I got a pretty basic truck, the XLT trim is pretty low on the upgrades list. Preferred the sport model (no chrome, my least favorite look on trucks or cars in general) with the tow package and spray in bed liner for work. 4.2" non sync screen, 7 speaker sound system. Makes it easier for me as well, the XLT's don't pipe in fake engine noise into the cabin either, and from what I understand don't really have much of a factory EQ in them either.

    To top that off, I'm not going to be keeping the rear seats in my truck for much longer. Recently had someone smash the rear window of my truck overnight and stole all my tools for work, so now I keep them in a rolling tool box I bring into the house each night. It's been a tight wedge getting it in and out each day with the seats in, so I've been planning to place a piece of plywood across the floor at the same height as the bottom of the current seats using some stands on the floor, and likely a piece going across the rear wall as well. I could go custom box with this non standard setup, but I'm probably still just going to order an enclosure from Super Crew Sound, put it under the plywood "floor" hidden from prying eyes and call it good. (Also the reason for going with the SD4 over the SD3's, much smaller magnet)

    I do suffer from analysis paralysis, so that's feeding into all this lol. I'm leaning towards the Helix M Four+Mono amp from another brand if I should be using more than 600W for the sub, as I don't see any real benefit to using a more expensive amp on the sub stage, especially given I'm not an audiophile. If 600W should be plenty on the other hand, then I'm seriously considering a G Five as it's about $100 more than the 2 amp setup but would simplify the install.
    Last edited by blacknteal831; 05-14-2020 at 09:06 PM.

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    I have 550w for my subs in my f150 and it will rattle the mirrors and windows.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup


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    Noob blacknteal831's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    I have 550w for my subs in my f150 and it will rattle the mirrors and windows.
    That's partially what I've figured, I know a 600W sub should easily rattle the mirrors if I want it to, just saw a bunch of conflicting info when I was researching the subs about overpowering them for the dynamics in a song, though I don't know if I'd honestly be able to tell the difference. I don't have a lot of high quality audio files either so that may all be moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlekk View Post
    Yeah, I saw they sold them (also my old hometown!) and that's where I was able to find prices for the Helix's, minus the M One X.

    So it's either $620 or so for the Helix M Four and Kicker 46CXA800.1 or $700 for the Helix G Five, or $800 for a M Four and M One. Guess it isn't really that much higher than the $500 of amps I was looking at from Zapco plus a $75 Auto Stop Eliminator either. Thanks for the help, any more opinions are welcome as well!

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    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    The NVX amps that were suggested are really good. I have one in my daughters' Camaro and it runs all day without getting hot and has plenty of power. It's an older 900.5, but I can tell you the ratings on youtube are real. I'm also running a single Image Dynamics IDQ10 v4 at 2ohms with 450 rms tuned to 31hz and I can tell you it sounds crystal clear, very accurate and musical, nothing muddy. They are more of an SQ sub, but will flat out rattle your dentures out if pushed. I am like Jdunk, in that regard to either the Pioneer or the NVX. I know nothing bout the start stop feature since non of my vehicles have that, however I have seen videos on youtube where there is some type of harness that is installed that prevents this from happening. To maximize your performance out of the sub, unless space prevents it, I would recommend using a ported box. Yes you will get that tight punchy nature running sealed, however I don't believe the Sundown will do what you want. By doing your research I'm sure you have seen they are ground pounders and SPL monsters, and I don't think you really want that. From your post it looks like you want to have that ability when wanted/needed but I don't think you want to sacrifice the sound quality necessarily for that. That's what lead me to the Image Dyamics. There is also another line called TORO which I was introduced to by another member here, I've called them and they have a line that is more SQ built as well. Also a Rockford Fosgate Punch P3 is one to consider. And if you want to have fun "building your own", which is what I'm doing for my next one is "Fi Audio"; they are know for having that best of both world lines, since they have like 8 different models to choose from. You can choose whatever options you want based on your needs, desires, and price point as well, plus you can choose the dust cap type and color logo if it's something you will see. You will also be introduced into the world of the DSP out here as was I. I knew nothing about them and am learning how they vastly inprove sound quality and imaging, so add that into your budget as I have been instructed. And if you can't tune it yourself there are shops that can I'm finding out for about the $200 price range. Just things to consider from someone who is learning with champagne dreams on beer pocket finances, like domestic run of the mill PBR, Miller, Budweiser finances...lol

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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    Last edited by mlekk; 05-15-2020 at 05:49 AM.

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    Noob blacknteal831's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyt View Post
    The NVX amps that were suggested are really good. I have one in my daughters' Camaro and it runs all day without getting hot and has plenty of power. It's an older 900.5, but I can tell you the ratings on youtube are real. I'm also running a single Image Dynamics IDQ10 v4 at 2ohms with 450 rms tuned to 31hz and I can tell you it sounds crystal clear, very accurate and musical, nothing muddy. They are more of an SQ sub, but will flat out rattle your dentures out if pushed. I am like Jdunk, in that regard to either the Pioneer or the NVX. I know nothing bout the start stop feature since non of my vehicles have that, however I have seen videos on youtube where there is some type of harness that is installed that prevents this from happening. To maximize your performance out of the sub, unless space prevents it, I would recommend using a ported box. Yes you will get that tight punchy nature running sealed, however I don't believe the Sundown will do what you want. By doing your research I'm sure you have seen they are ground pounders and SPL monsters, and I don't think you really want that. From your post it looks like you want to have that ability when wanted/needed but I don't think you want to sacrifice the sound quality necessarily for that. That's what lead me to the Image Dyamics. There is also another line called TORO which I was introduced to by another member here, I've called them and they have a line that is more SQ built as well. Also a Rockford Fosgate Punch P3 is one to consider. And if you want to have fun "building your own", which is what I'm doing for my next one is "Fi Audio"; they are know for having that best of both world lines, since they have like 8 different models to choose from. You can choose whatever options you want based on your needs, desires, and price point as well, plus you can choose the dust cap type and color logo if it's something you will see. You will also be introduced into the world of the DSP out here as was I. I knew nothing about them and am learning how they vastly inprove sound quality and imaging, so add that into your budget as I have been instructed. And if you can't tune it yourself there are shops that can I'm finding out for about the $200 price range. Just things to consider from someone who is learning with champagne dreams on beer pocket finances, like domestic run of the mill PBR, Miller, Budweiser finances...lol
    Ah, you know I had researched the subs a lot more back when I was looking at a system for my old truck, and thought I had remembered reading they were meant to be more SQ oriented than the other Sundown Audio subs, plus a somewhat shallow mounting depth, which is one of the main reasons I looked at the SD's in the first place. Though it doesn't seem like there's quite the same consensus there used to be on them being at least decent SQ subs, so I think I'll be doing some more research on my sub choice.

    Is there any recommendations for some shallow (or at least shallower) subs? I know the SI BM mkV was really well liked but is discontinued.

    I'd been planning to get a box from supercrew sound for my Supercab from before I planned to remove my rear seats, but was leaning towards using them still so I could make the decision later of either including the sound system or not with the truck when I do get rid of it some day (so it'd need to fit under the rear seat). Even if I shifted the box forward in the footwell with a customer box, I don't think I'm going to get the mounting depth much more than 5.5". That would unfortunately make the ID subs not really compatible with the space I have, or many normal depth subs. Though I'm not forced into a strict limit for box size because of my plan to pull out the rear seats, I did plan on having the box underneath a plywood "floor" mounted about 7" off the floor, I could always just keep the plywood "floor" from going all the way to the driver's side and leave the space behind the driver's seat open for a bigger box/sub. Thought I'd at least had this part planned out already, guess not quite!

    As far as the auto stop-start feature, there's several products for eliminating the feature, including both harnesses for mounting behind the selection switch itself and a device that plugs into your OBD 2 port. Pretty sure I read it can be disabled through Forscan as well, but I don't wanna touch that until my truck is out of warranty. My luck is it'd brick the controller.

    And yeah, I've read a lot about the recommendation to get a DSP. As of right now, it's not sure that I'm planning on installing one at first. As I've mentioned, this is going to be the first vehicle I'll have been in with a nice sounding aftermarket system. I'm still between running active off the 4 channel amplifier or bridging the amp and using the crossovers that came with the Morels (which are supposed to sound good from what I've read), but I kinda want to see how I enjoy the sound after deadending panels and using CCF to help seal up the car with all the new equipment. I do plan on splicing into the factory radio using a Parot harness so I can always make sure to leave enough slack in the wires to move them over to a DSP later if I'm not satisfied with the sound. I guess I look at it as installing a DSP afterwards, or at least the physical installation of it, is a lot easier than most tasks involved with audio installs on a car.

    Still, the price of a Dayton DSP-408 means I still am considering pulling the trigger on one to begin with and just go all in the first time.

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    Noob mikeyt's Avatar
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    Re: Need help deciding on amplifer setup

    For $150, from what everyone swears by it is a worth while investment. I too have just been introduced into it and am going to make way for one for me. I'm also going to get the blue tooth dongle for $28 I think it is. Also seems to be worth it because you can set it up on a pc if wanted then have the settings on your phone and tweak once the base line is set. I found the owners manual online and the st up seems to be not too difficult, but I've never don't this before so I know there will be a decent learning curve. There are several youtube videos on it and at first I was a little overwhelmed but after reading the set up guide it made more sense. You're going to have to look at individual subs for that mounting depth and see what you find. The Image Dynamics will work I believe, but going the way of shallow mount narrows your choices for 10's and 12's, they're more of the 8". The JL audio 10w0v3-4 will work JL 10tw1-2, Diamond Audio DES104 to name a few. If you go with a regualr box the world's a stage.

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