Three years to get around to my own install.

[geolemon]

I did a bunch of listening - notes, for anyone interested in the comparison:
(Where I refer to "spread", that's bounded between the two outer vertical lines)

- BG Neo3S in side panels (4 of them)
- EQ'd to bring midbass and Neo3s in line



7 years (Lukas Graham) - image height above speakers and level. The film projector sound was perfectly present, yet subdued. Opening piano perfectly centered. Vocals were decent - no gap but there was a spread... I think just a 'presence' that I need to EQ out.

Fast Car (Tracy Chapman) - Guitar was nicely centered and high. Tracy's vocals had no gap, yet there was another undefined width to it. Enjoying the detail of the Neo3s as widebands - no tweeters needed and good high detail without sibilance.

Africa (Toto) - opening drum detail is nice - and well placed and cohesive. Vocals mostly good - the range he sings helps: that spread appears at only his lower vocals. If I move my head slightly toward center it disappears, so I think it's simply aiming. Lots of great detail in these that I'm impressed to hear come out in my jenky rig.

Blurred Lines (Alan Thicke) - for some reason, these lower vocals have less (but not no) of the spread. Decent. And the percussion effects come out as they should, clicking slightly right and left. You can hear the instant decay of the Neo3s with this song.

Star Wars: a new hope (prague Philharmonic Orchestra) - ok, I was ambitious listening to this. The details are honestly impressive, real, maybe my best "stage image" with my half-assed evaluation aiming and eq-ing - but damn this song makes me wish I had a sub hooked up to get the timpani drum rumble that this track has! I guess the good take is, what I hear pulled me in and I wanted the whole thing.

ID (Kygo) - again the percussive aspects, detail, decay - fantastic. All the snappy pops, dings, bells - all very real. The piano was all well centered but the lower chords near the end did have a bit of spread - this is good enough though that it simply sounded like a separate instrument. This track really came alive, and I suspect I can tighten the center at the low midrange.

Can I kick it (a tribe called quest) -good detail on the acoustics, and vocals had that spread. The scratching sounded right, without sibilance.

Isn't she lovely (Livingston Taylor) - opening whistle nicely centered as the guitar on the right maintained height! Same with the left - no "rainbow" like with them firing up.
The acoustic guitar details are what's lovely.

Suzie Blue (ben Harper and the innocent criminals) - the opening victrola effect comes out dramatically, as the recording engineers intended. Music opens up into that wide, full, very live sound. There's enough sound energy across the spectrum on this track to mask that low-mid spread at his vocals, but it is still there.

Brothers in arms (Dire Straits) - The thunder effect really comes out - mostly because of my EQ attempt this time, I'm sure. But the imaging and presence and height and lack of rainbow throughout this song - I do believe to be both the vertical orientation and the direct pathlength alignment of the dual drivers on each side.

I will remember (Toto) - those opening drums. Yes. Great right-to-left as recorded.
The choir vocals ("ooh ooh") were perfect. Lead singer vocals had that spread, but the drum effect made it seem that he was simply slightly left.

Avrats (infected mushroom) - I didn't need to hear this track - I knew the details and stereo effects would be good, but I can't get away from this track - and I did pick up even more acoustic details (the tin-can ting-ting to the left!) that sounded truly real. This was the first time this song had me imagining it was Blue Man Group and these electronic effects were BMG contraptions.
That said - some localization was also present if I listened for it. Fortunately, it was all uniform stage height, and that really did help mitigate it.

Wicked Game (Chris Isaak) - this has the haunting, give you chills effect I like with this song. Which made me want to try:

Sound of Silence (Disturbed) - WAY more centered than I thought. The crescendo does bring the emotion, but not quite as spot-on as Wicked Game - but think it's EQ details.

Regulate (Warren G) - these Anarchies kick the midbass. Both rappers have that spread/location issue, more Nate than Warren. But the detail and sonic are great.

Until the end of time (2Pac) - I'm a sucker for 2Pac's remakes of 80s classics. His voice has the spread, but image height is great - and again, the detail on the bells... Oh yeah.

Poison (Alice Cooper) - this is never on my SQ eval list but I had to give my favorite hair metal song a listen. Largely good - what's missing to make it "rock concert live" is the THUD of bass slamming me -again wish I had a sub. Slight subdued feeling to Alice's vocals, again think this is simply EQ needs, not a speaker or placement issue.

Run to the hills (iron maiden) - man it's hard listening to metal without the power of slamming bass. The Neo3s handle the speed just fine - things simply sound a little hollow without a sub on this stuff.

Silent Lucidity (Queensryche) - since I'm in my Hair Metal playlist, here's one that should shine - and it does. Great acoustic guitar. Vocal presence is great. Sure I missed a little kick when the rest of the band came in, but the details and orchestral effects really come through - by the choir, there's no more missing the sub. (Well... you know)

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[BenevolentDictator]

Just wanted to applaud you for using "Can I Kick it" for your testing. That is all.

I did a bunch of listening - notes, for anyone interested in the comparison:
(Where I refer to "spread", that's bounded between the two outer vertical lines)

- BG Neo3S in side panels (4 of them)
- EQ'd to bring midbass and Neo3s in line



7 years (Lukas Graham) - image height above speakers and level. The film projector sound was perfectly present, yet subdued. Opening piano perfectly centered. Vocals were decent - no gap but there was a spread... I think just a 'presence' that I need to EQ out.

Fast Car (Tracy Chapman) - Guitar was nicely centered and high. Tracy's vocals had no gap, yet there was another undefined width to it. Enjoying the detail of the Neo3s as widebands - no tweeters needed and good high detail without sibilance.

Africa (Toto) - opening drum detail is nice - and well placed and cohesive. Vocals mostly good - the range he sings helps: that spread appears at only his lower vocals. If I move my head slightly toward center it disappears, so I think it's simply aiming. Lots of great detail in these that I'm impressed to hear come out in my jenky rig.

Blurred Lines (Alan Thicke) - for some reason, these lower vocals have less (but not no) of the spread. Decent. And the percussion effects come out as they should, clicking slightly right and left. You can hear the instant decay of the Neo3s with this song.

Star Wars: a new hope (prague Philharmonic Orchestra) - ok, I was ambitious listening to this. The details are honestly impressive, real, maybe my best "stage image" with my half-assed evaluation aiming and eq-ing - but damn this song makes me wish I had a sub hooked up to get the timpani drum rumble that this track has! I guess the good take is, what I hear pulled me in and I wanted the whole thing.

ID (Kygo) - again the percussive aspects, detail, decay - fantastic. All the snappy pops, dings, bells - all very real. The piano was all well centered but the lower chords near the end did have a bit of spread - this is good enough though that it simply sounded like a separate instrument. This track really came alive, and I suspect I can tighten the center at the low midrange.

Can I kick it (a tribe called quest) -good detail on the acoustics, and vocals had that spread. The scratching sounded right, without sibilance.

Isn't she lovely (Livingston Taylor) - opening whistle nicely centered as the guitar on the right maintained height! Same with the left - no "rainbow" like with them firing up.
The acoustic guitar details are what's lovely.

Suzie Blue (ben Harper and the innocent criminals) - the opening victrola effect comes out dramatically, as the recording engineers intended. Music opens up into that wide, full, very live sound. There's enough sound energy across the spectrum on this track to mask that low-mid spread at his vocals, but it is still there.

Brothers in arms (Dire Straits) - The thunder effect really comes out - mostly because of my EQ attempt this time, I'm sure. But the imaging and presence and height and lack of rainbow throughout this song - I do believe to be both the vertical orientation and the direct pathlength alignment of the dual drivers on each side.

I will remember (Toto) - those opening drums. Yes. Great right-to-left as recorded.
The choir vocals ("ooh ooh") were perfect. Lead singer vocals had that spread, but the drum effect made it seem that he was simply slightly left.

Avrats (infected mushroom) - I didn't need to hear this track - I knew the details and stereo effects would be good, but I can't get away from this track - and I did pick up even more acoustic details (the tin-can ting-ting to the left!) that sounded truly real. This was the first time this song had me imagining it was Blue Man Group and these electronic effects were BMG contraptions.
That said - some localization was also present if I listened for it. Fortunately, it was all uniform stage height, and that really did help mitigate it.

Wicked Game (Chris Isaak) - this has the haunting, give you chills effect I like with this song. Which made me want to try:

Sound of Silence (Disturbed) - WAY more centered than I thought. The crescendo does bring the emotion, but not quite as spot-on as Wicked Game - but think it's EQ details.

Regulate (Warren G) - these Anarchies kick the midbass. Both rappers have that spread/location issue, more Nate than Warren. But the detail and sonic are great.

Until the end of time (2Pac) - I'm a sucker for 2Pac's remakes of 80s classics. His voice has the spread, but image height is great - and again, the detail on the bells... Oh yeah.

Poison (Alice Cooper) - this is never on my SQ eval list but I had to give my favorite hair metal song a listen. Largely good - what's missing to make it "rock concert live" is the THUD of bass slamming me -again wish I had a sub. Slight subdued feeling to Alice's vocals, again think this is simply EQ needs, not a speaker or placement issue.

Run to the hills (iron maiden) - man it's hard listening to metal without the power of slamming bass. The Neo3s handle the speed just fine - things simply sound a little hollow without a sub on this stuff.

Silent Lucidity (Queensryche) - since I'm in my Hair Metal playlist, here's one that should shine - and it does. Great acoustic guitar. Vocal presence is great. Sure I missed a little kick when the rest of the band came in, but the details and orchestral effects really come through - by the choir, there's no more missing the sub. (Well... you know)

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[geolemon]

Just wanted to applaud you for using "Can I Kick it" for your testing. That is all.

Thanks!

You bring up a good chance to mention the tracks and seeming randomness of them, and some of the other factors-

I'm using Spotify - I have a regular subscription, haven't updated it to the hi-fi yet. The standard-def version actually has me listening harder, so I'm vetting my tracks.

I have my own "SQ playlist" with tracks that aren't necessarily favorites of mine, but make certain things stand out.

I also follow a couple SQ playlists - I've used 3 tracks from the Old Fashioned Car Audio Podcast, for example, two are awesome.

And then I have a whole bunch of tracks that I ACTUALLY listen to "in real life".

I like to randomize them intentionally - the contrast between tracks helps things pop out. Sometimes focusing on one thing for too long makes your own thoughts become convincing. So I think it helps.

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[geolemon]

Next up - the 3" version of the Tectonics BMRs. I had high hopes for these, since they are used in real hi-fi speakers. In my initial listening though, I noticed the details just weren't there like the others.

My first change was to put them back on the JL Xover and bring back the separate tweeters. But still - just not as much detail.
Notably - there was also more width to that spread-out center, rather than a sharp location and image - but the reduced details also could be the culprit there.

But I still ran them through the rounds. If nothing else, these might be my #1 candidate for rear fill drivers.

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[geolemon]

For measurements, here's what REW says:


Note I dropped the tweeters around the sides of the plexiglass, to basically remove them, since I really just want to show what the BMR's were doing.

From a distortion perspective - I never shared the other BMR plot (the 2" array of four-per-side) because I questioned if I did something wrong (and also the purpose of this rig here is pretty much the opposite of an anechoic chamber), the distortion numbers were just so high. But let's take a look.
(remember - the Anarchy's are consistently the "500hz/down", and the drivers I'm trying to decide on are running "500hz/up" - separated by a simple 12dB/octave filter)

Here's the plot for these 3" ones-



and just for comparison's sake - the 2" arrays:


Since we're comparing -
Here's the Neo3's:


Again, I wouldn't scrutinize them too much - REW generates these automatically, nothing that I set up here is proper for any sense of a distortion test - I'm intentionally introducing reflections and things that we have to contend with in a car, with this rig...
But still if nothing else the Neo3's were significantly measuring cleaner than either set of BMR's.

[geolemon]

And listening notes:


- Vertical 3" Tectonic BMR array
- with tweeters (they did reach decently high in pre-auditioning - but with noticeable sibilance).
- noticed that my angled mounts were making the near side very locateable. I have them as cross-firing as I can get them.
- listening either "flat" or with a milder EQ (notably less efficient than the Neo3s)

Isn't she lovely (Livingston Taylor) - image is noticeably at the near speaker, at driving position. With EQ, they seem lacking detail. With. The EQ flat, I raise their presence but there is a subtle bit less detail than the Neo3s.

Lullaby for a stormy night (Vienna Tang) - with EQ on, the piano is well represented, but her vocals sound artificial - like she's singing through wax paper. With EQ flat it was less pronounced, it does simply seem like a need for EQ.

Suzie Blue (Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals) - the old-tyme recording effect here just lacked the in-your-face, obviously-a-recording-effect cool factor, EQ or no EQ. Same with when the band came in and the effect goes away - still pleasant, but not "wow - that was cool". Vocals still at the near speaker.

Brothers In Arms (Dire Straits) - the opening storm - not as realistic. Over-presence of that near side speaker, although it otherwise does have a stage across the dash. I believe It's pure aiming, but the detail simply isn't as sharp.
Comparing EQ to no EQ - there almost seems to be more detail when I do bump up the Anarchies. I do believe that's the Anarchies out-detailing the BMRs in the crossover region.

Avrats (Infected Mushroom) - here there's not just that veil over the detail, but there's a pronounced 'click', an exaggeration of a percussion detail that I didn't get before. I'll discount that for now - but also noting the kick drum detail has a sound as though there's a pillow damping it. That simply gets worse if I flatten the EQ, so both also could be EQ needs.

[I can't pin the lack of detail on intermodulation - most of this I'm listening at relatively low levels, even without visible cone motion, so intermodulation isn't possible.]

Layla (Eric Clapton) - again perfectly pleasant but not "real". Surprisingly, I am thinking at this point that there's more detail in the upper-mid (read: BMR range) than the lower mid (read: piston motion). I'm wondering if the lower frequency motion is somehow distorted by the intentionally-not-rigid diaphragm? I'd think that would make for high-frequency difficulties, but it's really not - although as mentioned earlier I'm listening with tweeters because I DID hear sibilance way up there.
The applause -felt muffled. The detail of individual hands clapping wasn't there.

Ultimately disappointed with the lack of detail, although the tonality was otherwise good -

I really think these might be perfect for simulating reflections, just slightly diffuse is actually a good thing for that, and I can run them from 400hz to 2khz or so with some extra delay as rear full speakers, small enough to hide in the hatch.

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[geolemon]

On to the Volvo Dynaudio domes.

These are intriguing because they come installed in a small sealed cup. They don't need an enclosure. Mount them wherever.

So I'm starting with them in-dash, firing up.

You'll see during the listening, I added some inverted dome reflectors to try to emulate what Mirage used to do (that white home speaker in the pictures below - I want to emulate the 360° reflector they use over the mid and tweeter for that omnidirectional 3D imaging - described way earlier in this thread).

Also as you'll see in the listening notes, my first attempt here doesn't include the 15° forward angle that Mirage always insisted was part of the special sauce... But they also didn't have a windshield so I figured let's start at zero.

The last pic I also reference in my listening notes - imaging was improved when I put the tweeter right on top - also like the Mirage satellites.

Right off the bat I was struck by how good they sound. Their design is great for trying them out in different locations - which I'll do.

But initially, this is dash mounted:






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[geolemon]

For the measurements - 3" Volvo Dynaudio domes:
- Green - 3" domes
- Purple - 6.5" Anarchy's
- Red - both combined



And since I shared the distortion of the others - for comparison, the domes:


One more measurement -
Since I do my listening below both with and without the Mirage-style reflectors, here's a comparison of how little they actually impact the response plot:

[geolemon]

The Volvo Dynaudio domes, the listening notes (just firing up here, without and with reflectors):


- Volvo Dynaudio domes
- firing up, no reflector
- flat EQ

Isn't she lovely (Livingston Taylor) - First impressions - these are efficient compared to the last. Opening whistle is coming from left speaker rather than center.
On the distinct L/R sounds, there is a rainbow effect, and although the guitar solo really sounded "real" and an image formed, the speakers are locateable with much of the material. Tonally very nice.

Suzie Blue (Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals) - the old-tyme recording effect was restored here, with that scratchy detail not lost by the speakers. The band coming in with all the warmth was a dramatic, pleasant shift. Imaging however wasn't fantastic. Some was - the soundstage was definitely complex and formed some semblance of an image, but the woodwind solo was very locateable, and the rainbow effect was minimized, but once you listen for it, is there.

I Will Remember (Toto) - imaging was largely decent. I'm feeling like the higher-mids (which sound boosted like this flat-EQ presents it) are where the location gets pulled.
If I take the tweeters off the dash, it helps. Upper mid are still locateable though.

- Added 3D printed "Mirage" reflectors while sound playing

I Will Remember (Toto) - imaging changed... Not necessarily for the better. I feel like I caused the speaker location to be more identifiable at lower frequencies.

-- At this point I positioned the tweeter on top of the reflectors, as far as the wire could reach, also as the song was playing

I Will Remember (Toto) - imaging changed again - this time for the better. But I don't want to rely on tweeter aiming, and if I focus on the prior problems - they are still there, just camouflaged.

Boogie shred (Mike Dawes) - one thing is clear - these domes are accurate. Still have the tweeters on top, and imaging is good - just not great. Height is decent - just above the tweeters, pretty much right where they are firing at the windshield.

Dream a little dream (Laura Fygi) - With tweets on top, decent. With the tweets removed completely - the center spread reappears. The right actually is distinctly locateable at her vocal range, where the left was more locateable without the reflectors.

-- At this point I took 0.25" off each leg, thinking I had too much gap between dome and reflector - I now probably have 1/8" gap

Dream a little dream (Laura Fygi) - the opening right-only guitar was locateable. Her vocals were a noticeably lower stage height now. So not an improvement - but this is how Mirage does it, except... They use a 15° forward angle. Mine are flat.
If I stand, move my head toward the top of the windshield - sure enough, the image REALLY improves.

So I need to actually try this with a forward angle because the windshield itself is in the equation - and later also I will try them vertical for good measure.


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[geolemon]

So I set them up roughly where the domes might be if they were installed in my sail panels.

Like always, I did quite a bit of initial listening in advance - and was disappointed but not surprised that they were locateable.


Coming off the disappointment from my high hopes with the 3" Tectonic BMRs, I didn't necessarily need to do some formal listening - it's not worse than any others, it's just that I'm not going to move forward until I'm confident I have an alignment I can overcome the weaknesses of.

So let's overcome. I have an idea:

I haven't seen it done in the commercial high-end audio space (like the Mirage's) but in my old '95 Civic, I built plexiglass shields to attenuate the near-side tweeter on both sides, since the tweeters were high on the door.
The plexi reflector was just enough to block the near side - blocking the near side direct pathlengths but allowing the far side direct sound. It helped equalize an otherwise bad stock location, taking advantage of their aim towards the windshield:


I think the use of an omni reflector instead might just be possible to... hey, do both:
1) Create a balance of attenuation, right to left, by blocking the near side slightly for that two-seat image balance.
2) Create a 360 degree sound source illusion... ie. Mirage, ie. Ohm Walsh, ie. Balzano Villetri.

I have the reflectors from earlier, but it's hard to hold them. Balance them. Clamp them. No way to experiment with angles...



I have a better idea...
Oh crap. 7+ hours to print. Each one.

Will be back in a day or two.



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