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Thread: Three years to get around to my own install.

  1. Back To Top    #151

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    Also -
    While 3D printing my first omni reflector, I ordered two GRS PT6825 planar mids:
    https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-PT...-8-Ohm-272-126

    I've actually been doing a ton of reading and research on these, skeptical of their price (1/4 the price of the BG Neo8S) and apparent cloning of the BG Neo8S.

    I decided to buy these instead of the Neo8s because they are very closely to identical other than power handling, and I've half a mind to think that might even simply be conservative ratings. They are just too close. Close enough to use for test purposes and at least 90% likely to not have a reason to swap for "real" BG Neo8s. Even the power handing, I don't need more with the efficiency these have. Every review of these - including direct comparisons between BG Neo8's and Radian 8 panels have not only reviewed them positively, but measured them positively, even having the smoothest response and distortion in shootouts.

    I'll probably need tweeters, even if just from 10k-up... But I'll need them even if I go the Volvo/Dynaudio domes route anyway, so if I gain low mid extension and need tweeters - it simply puts me exactly in the same place, just needing to choose between the domes and the planar option.

    Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by geolemon; 04-12-2021 at 03:00 PM.

  2. Back To Top    #152

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    Printing of both is complete...
    I made these with a mounting base that matches the domes flange, and a friction hinge on the legs.

    That will allow me to rotate it and angle it to position the reflector wherever I want.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    If I were actually installing this permanently I would have designed in a few holes and use the speaker's screws to hold it in place, but for this I want to be able to rotate it. So I might need to rig up a jenky looking friction mount with some screws around the outside.

  3. Back To Top    #153

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    Well...
    I was hoping that with these domes simply would work firing in, vertical, no other aiming - with the use of these reflectors. Just playing with combining a few ideas from history... Part omni-reflectors, part attenuation shields for balance...
    But it just didn't do it in that simple vertical sail panel setup.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Still, I DID make an improvement with the reflectors in this specific orientation, but really not in any other orientation. I did a lot of listening while experimenting with 12 or 15 variants of rotation and hinge angle, and really just this one "worked".

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And - it was pretty particular... a few degrees of rotation and the benefit was gone. So I'd worry about different passengers, different seat angles, etc. would ruin the benefit.
    Damn.

    So I'm going to cut down this baffle panel and play with aiming the speaker the old fashioned way, with and without reflector - and the one I'm really hoping for - stealing the Mirage approach of a 15 degree upfiring angle (or maybe more... because "windshield" rather than "wall") with the reflector angled horizontal.

    No specific listening notes because I did it all while trying to find a magic alignment, and just didn't get there.

  4. Back To Top    #154

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    So oddly, simply this turns it to be best so far - but I'm not 100% happy yet.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The fisheye lens I'm using distorts it a bit - it's firing straight in, both sides:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    It does sound excellent, I could install these same speakers like this and I'll be perfectly happy, even picky as I am. I could impress people with this - especially the inevitable "what speakers are these?"
    "Junkyard speakers from a Volvo."


    Anyway - I need to do some more playing.
    Maybe some more 3D printing.

    What I believe is that this is already "good enough", and possibly something I could keep playing with and refining - 3D printed reflectors, diffusers, etc.

    I do like these drivers a whole lot - but in the next few days those GRS PT6825 planar mids should show up.

    I'm already liking this orientation enough to start shopping for a set of junkyard A pillar panels to cut apart. Call it a neurotic thing, but I always like to be able to restore the car to factory fresh, and cutting A pillars apart is a whole lot less involved than removing and modifying the dash!

    Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by geolemon; 04-13-2021 at 09:18 PM.

  5. Back To Top    #155
    Owner BigAl205's Avatar
    Real Name
    Alan
    Location
    Hayden, AL
    Vehicle
    2018 Chevy Silverado Z-71
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    Feb 2013

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    Do you have anything in place to simulate the seats, console, etc?

  6. Back To Top    #156

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigAl205 View Post
    Do you have anything in place to simulate the seats, console, etc?
    Yes and no -

    First, a qualifier - none of this is meant to be precision, not aimed at arriving at some install-ready, perfect-for-the-car-as-is solution to just pop in the car.

    All I'm trying to do here really, is scientific method: experimental alignments, experimental components, experimental reflectors...
    (also - only between 500hz and 4000hz - except where I bypassed by JL crossover)
    ...the goal is to make cuts, to dismiss the ones that don't work, before I get into ripping my car apart and spending time and possibly causing damage - to arrive at the same dismissal.

    The goal is to whittle down to a list of "most feasible" options - then the traditional install/tweak process can start... Including all the traditional DSP and EQ tuning.

    For the REW measurements - I'm actually removing ALL the soft parts from the rig (just the windshield/dash/windows left), because:
    A) it's mainly the consistency of speaker A to speaker B to speaker C that I'm looking for, for three aspect of "which drivers do I like best? / Which drivers make the most sense for this install?"
    B) I do want *some* semblance of the reflections contributions to response, wherever that might be. I'm even positioning the mic consistently offset to the "drivers ear" position.

    And the listening - the enjoyable part is with the tweeters and midbass, playing with the phone's EQ...
    ...but I'm also dropping the tweeters, disabling the midbass (push of a button), listening "flat" - every time. That's to isolate the widebands and experimental parts, and see where they image alone, vs where the midbass and tweeters move the image to (things that would be addressed with DSP in an install - I intentionally want to discount those here!).

    That all said (phew):

    For seats - it's just my office chair. I have tried pulling a small leather swivel chair next to me, but it really didn't make much difference. I was actually glad, because I don't have an exact match for this office chair anyway, and this office chair itself is on the smaller side.

    On the floor, I have a silly white faux-fur throw rug of my fiancee's. It's got lots of fibers and a thick faux-suede backing - good enough.

    For a "roof" - i have two 2'x4' Styrofoam panels overlapping each other. Those also didn't make too much difference, although you can feel their presence.

    I've tried a center console - basically impacted my "door speakers" (which I'm not evaluating) but didn't change where the image was above-dash, when I disable the midbass.

    I've added door bottoms and extended the doors further back...
    This basement has about 1000 sq.ft. of drop ceiling that's comprised of 2'x4' ceiling tiles that are that soft-but-compressed fiberglass panels that have a textured and painted side also. They make convenient acoustically reflective/absorbent walls, I haven't gotten fancy with armrests but I do have that 2x4 "sill", and even went as far as to shape the vertical 2x4 to the window to eliminate reflections that I was definitely getting.

    I've placed and stacked those to close the door bottoms and extend it rear-ward and it does make some difference, BUT also didn't change the fundamentals of the image - meaning better is still better, worse is still worse.

    From a WAF perspective - if it's not impacting my decisions, she already thinks this ugly rig is crazy - having tiles removed from the drop ceiling and stacked all around it like a kids "fort" doesn't help my case that this is all perfectly mature and scientific...
    So really most of my listening notes have been without.

    For the purposes of
    a) selecting widebands
    and
    b) determining if any of my wild ideas are worth pursuing in-car
    ...time will tell if this pans out.

    Either way - I wasn't about to do any install work in the cold this winter, and this was better than "nothing".

    Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

  7. Back To Top    #157

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    So the GRS 8" magnetic panels have showed up and I made a couple small enclosures in the spirit of the Bohlender Graebner rear cups.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm ready to swap them in as you can see, but not doing that yet. I'm so impressed with the domes, one of the things I want to figure out as objectively as possible is whether the Dynaudio domes or magnetic planars has more detail...

    So I'm going to listen to the domes again, switch them out with the planars as quick as I can - and maybe even go back and forth a bit.

    Plus do the usual listening, after.

  8. Back To Top    #158

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    So I did do some listening and I'm really impressed with them, the detail is just hard to beat. It's damn impressive!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm just not yet at a point where I'm getting that "What my ears are hearing are even more real than what my eyes are seeing." like the Balzano Villetri, or the Z Reviews guys similar impression of the Ohms, or even the Mirages... which is more of "What I can do with the drivers" than "how are the drivers".

    So at this point I'm not sure if the omni approach applies in a car - I still want that experience so we'll see. The possible downside with these GRS magnetic planar is that it really doesn't lend itself to an omni reflector if I want to keep experimenting in that direction.

    That being said, I have more listening to get through tonight - more listening notes will follow.

    Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by geolemon; 04-17-2021 at 07:06 PM.

  9. Back To Top    #159

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    I'll still take REW measurements, but based on my initial impressions of having serious limitations on being able to position and aim these 8" panels - I think I'm sized out, officially. Shane because these just really truly have 100%

    I still have them wired up in the basement, but this is the Styrofoam it came in -
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm especially glad that I have that PVC/aluminum tape A-pillar in the rig - it's showing the same limitations to angling as the car.

    I brought out the Neo3s for size reference - I can modify the A pillar to fit two-per-side [phase/distance aligned per side], or even one in the A-pillar and one in the sail panel per side [still phase aligned].
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also, quick check - I see now that the airbag comes down lower than I thought, but I have room to modify the lower mount so it won't be in the way.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    There's also a fat connector right in my way - fortunately with enough slack that I can drill a new hole and also relocate that out of the way.

    Like I said, I'll still take REW measurements later, but at this point I'm hoping they don't play much lower than the Neo3s, because I'm just sized out off using the GRS 8s.

    From a detail standpoint, they seem equally good, either way - neo3s vs GRS 8. I'll just want to do some additional stress testing of the Neo3s to make sure they do have enough midrange chops...

    ...or there's also the equally crazy idea of running the Neo3s in the sail panels and above the sail in the A pillar, and the domes also in the lower A pillar...
    In that case running the Neo3s all the way up because I'd lose my allocated tweeter channels..
    Last edited by geolemon; 04-19-2021 at 05:20 PM.

  10. Back To Top    #160

    Re: Three years to get around to my own install.

    So the measurements -

    The GRS 8 sounded great. On the 500hz Xover between them and the Anarchys, you can see the efficiency - 10dB higher than the Anarchy's (below 500hz).
    Click image for larger version. 

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    • Blue - both
    • Yellow - GRS 8 panels
    • Green - Anarchy 6.5"


    Then I completely removed them from all the Xovers, even the 500hz high-pass that I had everything previously hooked up to at minimum. Just for my curiosity, I wanted to see if they were significantly deeper diving than the Neo3s. I thought for sure they'd be reaching down lower - but no!

    Here's a direct comparison of them on, then off the Xover:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    So then I had to mount up the Neo3S's again, no Xover, and compare them to the GRS 8 directly:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Almost dead on top of each other. Well, to be fair, I closed the wrong curve, so the GRS8 curve is on the Xover, and the Neo3S isn't, but you can see from the prior graph of the GRS 8 with vs without Xover - that hardly makes a difference.

    Verrrry interesting.

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