Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?

[mauian]

Does anyone have experience running/ installing a 2-way active setup that went from a tweeter in the corner dash location pointed up at the windshield to a wideband in the same location?

I currently have a pair of SB29RDNC tweets in this location which sound great. BUT, I noticed that tuning the woofers in the front lower door position (with a helix p six) is challenging with my legs and other structures/obstacles; plus the woofers are off axis which becomes more of an issue at higher frequencies.

Admittedly the off axis issues and beaming aren’t too bad as I run a set of alpine z15m (5.25”), but obstacles are still an issue.

I have a pair of Audiofrog GS25s that I could replace the tweeters with and instead of crossing them at 2kHz (as the tweets are now), I could cross the GS25s much lower at around 200-300 Hz. This could get me a large frequency range free of obstruction and up on the dash.

I imagine that I may lose a little top end sparkle with the GS25s, but with a good tune I wonder how noticeable it would be.

Anyone with experience doing or installing something like this with the GS25s, HAT L3SE, HAT unity, audible physics RAM 2, etc?

I am really interested in the benefits achieved by going to a wideband and moving so much of the frequency response up on the dash as opposed to down by my feet.

Or, would this be a big step backwards?

(I know...a 3-way would be better but I’m not interested in fabricating something for the midrange; really just looking to maximize things with the OEM locations)

Thanks!


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[Justin Zazzi]

I went from a 1" tweeter in the sail panel to a 3" wideband in the back corner of the dashboard.
Phenomenal difference in a positive way. I love it.

Gear was Morel Hybrid Ovation 6" and 1"
I swapped the 1" tweeter for a 3" Hybrid Audio L3SE wideband driver.
Then I swapped the Morel 6" for a Peerless SLS 6"
Then I didn't change a thing in the past seven years.

Aiming the wideband driver was very important. I would spend lots of time moving around on the dash with some towels or tape or something and trying many positions and many aiming angles. Even with zero tuning it was very easy to find the best location. I do not notice a lack of sparkle in the highest frequencies.

You might not want to use the GB25 though. It might work, but it is not designed or intended as a wideband driver.

[mauian]

That’s awesome, Justin. Glad you found a combo that you’ve been enjoying for 7! years. I hope to get to that point too .

I have the GS25 (not the GB25) so I should be ok.

It’s awesome to hear that it made such a positive difference. I couldn’t help but think that it would, but was hoping to hear from people that did the same or similar - so thanks!

Thanks for the tip on positioning. I probably won’t have much wiggle room as I’ll be keeping it in the OEM dash location (which is tight) but I’ll see what I can do with a custom made baffle perhaps under the OEM grills.

Now the question will be if I keep the alpine z15m (a speaker based off the Scanspeak Revelator 15W) in the doors (which is 5.25”, Xmax 6.5mm, Fs 44) or go back to the Audiofrog GS690 (6x9”, xmax 5mm, Fs 58).

Both are pretty impressive. I’m thinking the GS690 might be a better choice, but the alpines sounds really good right now too...


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[geolemon]

Not exactly what you did, but I did an install with a time-aligned array of 2" Tang Band full range speakers (even had tiny phase plugs) like 10 or 15 years ago, trying to avoid the need for tweeters.
It was those, and four 5.25" surprisingly capable midbass drivers, and a dual 8" sub in the rear.

The real purpose for the time-aligned array of the tiny speakers was to try to get from about 250hz up all the way, with no crossover points messing things up, trying to improve imaging. And from that perspective, it did work.

But realistically, those speakers only went up to about 10khz, and there's just no getting around that. In a corner location, firing up like you are, I'd expect some phasing interactions in two ways-
1) even tiny cone full-range speakers start to become directional at whatever frequency corresponds to their cone diameter. You'll be very off-axis, so they might even roll off before you reach 10khz.
2) the reflected sound imparts a 180 degree phase shift on the sound - so that stuff that rolls off WILL reflect so you might get it - but you won't be avoiding any of the ugliness or phase shifting of a crossover point. And I still think you won't get much at 10khz and up.

It's not a whole lot - but I bought a set of cheap Dayton domes just to use as super-tweeters (I ran them from 10hkz up I believe) and it just brought in that upper detail.

I'd do what I did-
Give it a go, no tweeter.

If you find some things missing - add one in your sail panels or somewhere easy, and cross it over high enough that it doesn't really impact your imaging anyway, to still get that benefit of your broader range driver.

[mauian]

Yeah, I'm going to give it a go with the GS25s and see if I can dial in a good tune (hopefully this weekend).

[JCsAudio]

I went from a 1” tweeter to a Celestion AN2775 3” wide band driver with decent success but in the end I went back to a tweeter, mainly the GB15, and I’m very satisfied with that. My issue was that the Celestion probably wasn’t the best choice and I was working with an off axis location with them firing up at the windshield. I also own that SB29 in another vehicle. It’s a great tweeter BTW. I think you’ll have good luck with the GS25 as it’s designed more for that purpose.

Tuning a two way as opposed to a three way is very tuff, especially with the midbass down low in the door and off axis. In my truck I left the two way tune as a DSP preset so I could quickly jump from three way to two way and the difference is astonishing really. The rainbow effect becomes clear once you are able to switch back and forth like that when using a small tweeter paired with a midbass. As Justin said, aiming a wideband driver becomes very important because of speaker beaming.

[Jdunk54nl]

Tuning a two way as opposed to a three way is very tuff, especially with the midbass down low in the door and off axis. In my truck I left the two way tune as a DSP preset so I could quickly jump from three way to two way and the difference is astonishing really. The rainbow effect becomes clear once you are able to switch back and forth like that when using a small tweeter paired with a midbass. As Justin said, aiming a wideband driver becomes very important because of speaker beaming.

Tuning a traditional 2 way is definitely hard to get around the rainbow effect, speaker choice really matters. You need a tweeter that can play as low as possible to mitigate it, a 6.5" that can play higher isn't going to help, you will still get beaming due to it being a 6.5".

I like the idea of a "wideband" and 6.5", or a 5" speaker and a 1" tweeter would be better, but then you need to focus on your subs to play a little higher.

I am actually debating about going wideband in my wife's SUV. Or 3 way....but then I'd have to buy another amp....I will probably go wideband and have Justin help me aim

Fun chart from Andy's tuning guide showing frequency and beaming based on speaker size. Obviously green is good and red is bad.

[geolemon]

Fun chart from Andy's tuning guide showing frequency and beaming based on speaker size. Obviously green is good and red is bad.

Really interesting that even a 1" dome tweeter suffers beaming for basically the whole 10khz-20khz top octave!

No wonder mass-less, dimension-less plasma tweeters exist...

[mauian]

So I installed the gs25 and did a rough tune because I couldn’t wait till the weekend. It sounded very noticeably different in a positive way. I was hearing details much more clearly that in my prior setup (I realize now) would get a bit muddied as it straddled the crossover point, or perhaps pulled lower toward the doors. Things are noticeably right on top of the dash with everything ~250 Hz and up.

My prior setup was a SB29RDNC and a 5.25” mid bass/midrange (alpine z15m) so I wasn’t running into issues with beaming (the combo really does sound great), but there was no getting around the difficulty of playing frequencies lower than 2k behind my leg in the front lower door panel. I’ m beginning to believe that for similar reasons why 3-way setups can sound amazing (with midrange and tweet above the dash), a good wideband can help a 2-way sound amazing.


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[JCsAudio]

Tuning a traditional 2 way is definitely hard to get around the rainbow effect, speaker choice really matters. You need a tweeter that can play as low as possible to mitigate it, a 6.5" that can play higher isn't going to help, you will still get beaming due to it being a 6.5".

I like the idea of a "wideband" and 6.5", or a 5" speaker and a 1" tweeter would be better, but then you need to focus on your subs to play a little higher.

I am actually debating about going wideband in my wife's SUV. Or 3 way....but then I'd have to buy another amp....I will probably go wideband and have Justin help me aim

Fun chart from Andy's tuning guide showing frequency and beaming based on speaker size. Obviously green is good and red is bad.

You can also see where a speaker starts beaming by looking at the frequency charts provided by the better manufacturers with on axis, 30 degrees, and 60 degrees off axis’s. You’ll see the frequency for each one start to diverge from each other at the point of beaming. Take this graph from the Scanspeak Classic 7” mid woofer for example. You can see it starts to diverge as low as 1000 Hz.


What many people don’t consider though are all the reflections you get in the tight small space of an automobile. Much of the information you hear is indirect sound as much as it is direct sound and if they don’t match, even when aimed on axis, it will be tough to get everything to sound right. When you LP a driver above it’s beaming point than the indirect sounds will start to become less in amplitude than the direct sounds at the listening position. Having the indirect sound be as close as the direct sound makes tuning easier. This is why using a three way and crossing each driver at or below its beaming point is the best method to use.

Can you be successful with a wide band driver, of course, but you’ll have to be real careful with driver aiming, and you may still not get the same top end sparkle you can get with a tweeter. If you want to use less than ideal factory speaker positions then you may have issues. I’ve seen enough members who went from a traditional two way, replace the tweeter with a wide band and be very excited at first, only to go back to a two way with traditional tweeter, or three way, including myself.