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Thread: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

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    Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    In this video I discuss why I recommend using your subwoofer to improve midbass response. Get your pitchforks ready!... I’m suggesting to run your sub higher than 30hz!

    This isn’t truly a shocking revelation. Plenty of people already do what I suggest. It just goes against intuition and against some beliefs in the car audio community that a subwoofer should not play too high in frequency because it can cause the bass to be localized behind you.

    The reason why is due to one MAJOR issue in car audio: the “Nearside Null”. This is the large dip in response of the driver’s side midbass speaker that occurs typically in the 70-90hz region. It is an acoustical null caused by the relationship of the listener’s location relative to the midbass location and generally caused by the width of the vehicle. If you play a track with bass guitar it’s very prevalent; you get a localization to the nearside midbass speaker when the midbass speaker is crossed lower than the frequency where the null occurs. This doesn't occur in every car; there are certainly exceptions to the more extreme car installs.

    Generally speaking, the lower your crossover point between midbass and subwoofer, the more noticeable this occurrence is. Unfortunately, this isn’t something you can simply “EQ out”, either. Throwing +6dB at this null may only result in 1dB of actual gain; that means you’re wasting a LOT of power and risking damage to your speaker for no acoustical gain. Some of you may even think to yourselves “seems like you’re not getting much by crossing the midbass low. Maybe there’s not as much benefit as I thought in doing that”. That’s a logical assumption and a lot of times that’s actually true. Crossing the midbass too low can actually result in more “bass behind you”! And you can also take some of the strain off your midbass by crossing them at or above the null. Ironically, we in car audio tend to cross midbass low to get the “up front” bass we so much desire. BUT, IN FACT, the majority of the time you have bass that pulls to the rear is BECAUSE of the midbass nulls. I know that sounds counteractive. But it’s the truth. Standing waves are problematic and this is one symptom of them; whether in home or car audio.

    Contrary to popular belief, raising the subwoofer crossover in to the region that this null occurs can actually HELP the sound to stay focused and achieve “up front” bass. If you can move your subwoofer to a location where it is null-free through a frequency above the Nearside Null then you can likely improve midbass without negatively impacting the “up front bass” effect that so many are after. And you can also take some of the strain off your midbass by crossing them at or above the null frequency. Not all have the luxury of space to move the subwoofer around much but experimentation is key here; you may be surprised at the difference subwoofer placement in the trunk can make.

    And one important conclusion here is that placing the rear mounted subwoofer on the opposite side of the listening position often results in better response!

    Last edited by erinh; 04-05-2020 at 04:34 PM.
    -- SQ is great, but sometimes nostalgia is greater. --


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    BURNED OUT Hillbilly SQ's Avatar
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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    I'm glad you posted this. I've thought for years that crossing midbass crazy low was kinda idiotic. One question I have though is...why did my Grand Cherokee and now my Ram both with door installs have a peak where you say there will normally be a null? In my Ram the door locations are low and forward butting up against the kick panel and in the Jeep they were somewhat middle of the door iirc. Or am I thinking about the phenomenon that happens when you get the lower midbass identical on the rta but then have to cut the left side afterwards to center it up by ear?

    EDIT: yeah I know for a fact now I'm referring to the case where the ears and rta don't agree with each other. Just pulled a screenshot of the gs690's in the Jeep doors and the drivers side null is in the upper 70's.
    They might say "don't try this at home" but nothing about not trying it at your friend's house.

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    A Refined Basshead blockrocker's Avatar
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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    That was a fantastic video! Thanks so much Erin.
    As a guy who is still pretty green in the serious SQ world, this kind of information is humongous. My truck install has all the typical issues you mentioned here and I've wondered what I could do to fix it or if it was something that I was doing wrong. So it is very reassuring to see people have the same issues and know that it is not a personal mistake, especially people with your experience level. You give several suggestions about combating the issues and back it up with visual proof.

    Not to mention, dispelling the idea that just having kicks over door installs would magically solve the nulls, saves me a shit ton of wasted time and disappointment. Not saying they wouldn't be an improvement - just not a magic bullet.

    10/10 video!

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    Noob Notloudenuf's Avatar
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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    TIL the reason my old car had such good upfront bass is because I got lucky on woofer placement.
    Thank you Erin
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    2002 330Ci & 2020 Tacoma

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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    Quote Originally Posted by blockrocker View Post
    As a guy who is still pretty green in the serious SQ world, this kind of information is humongous. My truck install has all the typical issues you mentioned here and I've wondered what I could do to fix it or if it was something that I was doing wrong. So it is very reassuring to see people have the same issues and know that it is not a personal mistake, especially people with your experience level.

    Honestly, that's the best feedback I could hope for. I'm glad I was able to help you make sense of this stuff and maybe save you some headaches down the line.
    -- SQ is great, but sometimes nostalgia is greater. --


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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    Thanks for the video Erin. I noticed a similar issue in my car not too long about and moved my crossover from 60hz to 80hz and noticed a bit of improvment. Do you think moving it up to 90hz or so would help anymore or would it just be more trial and error since every car is different? I know I have a lot of other tuning to do still but your videos are really helping.

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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    Would you push the crossover point all the way up to 100Hz(or higher) if the near side null is it 96Hz?

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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    First, thank you for the very helpful video. i did a few quick adjustments on my lunch break and noticed a marked improvement in the midbass response.

    Second, you mention how the near side null sounds like the sound is localized to the driver that has the null and also contributes to the subwoofer localizing to the rear instead of blending with the front. my question is do similar problems happen at higher frequencies? One thing I have noticed in my car is that sometimes I will hear some guitar notes and some hand drum notes that pull either straight back or to one of the rear corners even though the only driver in the rear is my sub. Is this effect somehow also phase related or are other there other potential things like reflections or? that could cause what would call a phantom speaker to momentarily grab your attention to an area where no physical driver is located?

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    BURNED OUT Hillbilly SQ's Avatar
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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    Erin-just noticed you said you suggest crossing the sub above 30hz. BLASPHEMY!But seriously we've been around long enough to remember when people were crossing their 6.5" midbass at 40hz or thereabouts then freaking out when someone tried to get any real volume out of the system. One thing I've noticed over the years is people are tuning their systems to rock now. Probably a product of the younger generation of competition people coming about.

    On the sub common sense tells me that sub choice is crucial to doing what you suggest. I can think of a lot of badass subs that are popular but struggle to play cleanly much above 60hz. It's really hard to have your cake and eat it too in that category. So a lot of people are most likely crossing midbass lower than they should because the sub can't play high enough to give a sufficient overlap and speaker limits. No different from crossing a 6.5" mid in doors to most tweeters where both speakers are playing to the ragged edge of their limits.
    They might say "don't try this at home" but nothing about not trying it at your friend's house.

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    Re: Use your subwoofer to get better midbass

    Quote Originally Posted by soundstreamer View Post
    Thanks for the video Erin. I noticed a similar issue in my car not too long about and moved my crossover from 60hz to 80hz and noticed a bit of improvment. Do you think moving it up to 90hz or so would help anymore or would it just be more trial and error since every car is different? I know I have a lot of other tuning to do still but your videos are really helping.
    Quote Originally Posted by LumbermanSVO View Post
    Would you push the crossover point all the way up to 100Hz(or higher) if the near side null is it 96Hz?

    Every car is going to require a bit of trial and error to get it the best it can be (note that I didn't say "perfect"). If you find something works well for you but doesn't make sense to you make sure to post it in your build log (or here is fine) and ask. A lot of this stuff is trial and error because not all cars and installs are the same. But there's a lot of similarities that can be applied between them.
    -- SQ is great, but sometimes nostalgia is greater. --


    Follow my blog:
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