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Thread: What do you think of my tune?

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    What do you think of my tune?

    I've been messing with the tune in my 2018 Challenger off-and-on for a while as I continuing to learn and experiment - and I think I have it sounding pretty damn good - especially considering that I don't have any "real" subs and that I am using inexpensive speakers in stock speaker locations. Here are the REW frequency response plots from all speakers (Dash, door, rear-deck, sub and all together). I was able to get the little 8" sub (entire powered enclosure is less than 3" in height!) playing down to about 35dB while being pretty flat.

    You'll notice the "unnatural" looking "bumps" in the door/dash responses. Those were needed to overcome what I assume are phase-related issues in the overall response - in order to keep the response flat in some areas. Without them, I would have dips at those locations when both L and R speakers are playing together. I also have a pretty big "notch" carved out between 2k and 5k - in my opinion, that was the key to getting the system sounding "correct" - otherwise, it was just too "harsh" and "in your face" at those frequencies. May just be related to my hearing though - not really sure. I also overlap the sub and midbass speakers a little just to add a little more "uummph" in the bass department. Using 24dB LR slopes on all crossovers.

    I'm curious to hear some feedback - both on the overall response curve and even if using EQ to overcome the "phase-related dips" is the "proper" way to address those issues when both L and R speakers are playing together. As long as the overall response with all speakers playing is good, should I really be concerned with "unnatural" response caused by the EQ on the individual speakers to overcome those phase-related dips when both L and R speakers are playing together (assuming that is what causes them)?

    Any other feedback on anything? I really like hearing constructive feedback as I have a lot to learn! Anything that sticks out as being obviously "wrong" or not "optimal"? You won't hurt my feelings. :-)

    Thank you.

    Last edited by jtrosky; 03-11-2020 at 05:30 AM.

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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    When taking a first look I will always go way finer resolution to see if there are any massive dips or peaks, even if very narrow, this way I don’t use eq trying to correct a narrow dip with a level section either side which then looks like a dip at 1/3 octave... you can soon mess up a relatively flat, smooth response by not looking more closely first then levelling things that actually need attention ����

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    BURNED OUT Hillbilly SQ's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    The overall curve looks pretty decent. It's normal to have a wide cut somewhere in there to suit your tastes. Most importantly do what sounds best to you because you're the one listening to it daily. Sadly looking at your curve only tells part of the story so we can only go by that.
    They might say "don't try this at home" but nothing about not trying it at your friend's house.

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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    Thanks guys. Yes, I do look at finer levels of detail before smoothing to make sure that there are no big peaks/dips that are being "hidden" by the smoothing. Honestly, I've never run into a peak/dip that EQ doesn't fix though. I know that people mention that all of the time, but I always seem to be able to EQ anything without issues - everything responds to EQ as you'd expect in my vehicle.

    I know that I was really cutting too much treble originally. I recently tried not cutting it so much and the system really came "alive" with that extra treble. It's amazing how "dynamic" the system can sound with good recordings. I use quite a few different songs when I "audition" my tune initially, including some Elton John FLAC files. The way that Rocket Man just "bursts" to life at the beginning after the initial vocals by Elton John is just awesome. I just wish everything was recorded so well and was so "dynamic". :-)

    in fact, that's the biggest "problem" I have - having to listen to crappy recordings on a system that sounds so good with better recordings. :-) I guess we all have that problem though.

    I wish I could do an A/B comparison of my system before amp/DSP/tuning and after, just to truly realize just how much of a difference I made. Unfortunately, it's been so long since I had the factory system connected, that I just can't compare the two. I have to think that the difference is huge though. I know that when I go back and look at measurements of my early tunes, I've made quite a bit of progress.

    Probably one of the biggest issues I had while tuning was knowing what frequency range I had to adjust to fix issues that I identified while listening. It just takes some experience to know what frequencies to adjust based on the problem you are hearing (in terms of overall "tone").

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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    Regarding an a/b comparison, maybe find the same model/year in a dealer and take a listen? Don't waste the guys time, but see if you can get a minute or two with the keys, that should be enough!

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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    Yeah, I just wish I took some measurements of the stock system. I've love to see how it's EQ'd from the factory, what crossover points they use, etc. Oh well, not *that* big of a deal, just kind of curious. I'll have to see if anyone over on the Challenger forums has (or can take) measurements of the stock system.

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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    Your sub to midbass transition is probably going to have some issues. You basically have them crossing over at 125hz but the midbass continues playing fairly flat until 80.

    Your transition between the mid and coaxials is also down a little low at the crossover point. Looks like nearly 10db low at the crossover point compared to what the speakers would be playing.

    Also are you using acoustical 24 db LR slopes or electrical? Electrical doesn't really matter other than to protect the speakers. Use 12, 24, 36 db slopes and/or butterworth/LR/etc types. Whatever fits an acoustical 24 db LR slope the best.
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    Your sub to midbass transition is probably going to have some issues. You basically have them crossing over at 125hz but the midbass continues playing fairly flat until 80.

    Your transition between the mid and coaxials is also down a little low at the crossover point. Looks like nearly 10db low at the crossover point compared to what the speakers would be playing.

    Also are you using acoustical 24 db LR slopes or electrical? Electrical doesn't really matter other than to protect the speakers. Use 12, 24, 36 db slopes and/or butterworth/LR/etc types. Whatever fits an acoustical 24 db LR slope the best.
    Well, let me try to explain my current tuning "method" and how I got here.... First though, yes, I have my sub and door midbass speakers overlapping. I just like the effect of having them overlap like that - it gives me deep'ish bass from the doors and the sub and they seem to compliment each other. While listening to the system, it basically sounds like *everything* is coming from those little 3.5" dash speakers - it's pretty cool how well everything blends together right now. :-)

    Ok, so originally, I would simply EQ each speaker individually and be done. However, then I realized that when I played L+R speaker pairs, I was getting dips in certain areas due to what I'm assuming are phase and/or reflection issues. So at that point, I "fixed" those dips in the L+R speaker responses so that the L+R speaker response followed my curve correctly. At this point, my individual speaker measurements no longer follow the curve correctly (due to the EQ I used to make the L+R pairs match the curve), but my L+R speaker pair measurements do match the curve. However, *then* I realized that when I played ALL speakers (dash, door, rear-deck and sub), there were a few more areas that needed "adjustment" to make the *overall* response match my curve. So then I adjusted those areas with EQ (adding/subtracting equal amounts from both L and R speakers where needed). At this point, neither my individual *or* L+R speaker pair measurement match my curve anymore, but the *overall* (all speakers playing) response does, which is what I believe the ultimate goal is - to match your desired curved with ALL speakers playing. At least that is my theory. So far, I'm very happy with the results... :-)

    So to show this in pictures, here are my base measurements for door, dash and all speakers playing - 350hz 24dB LR crossover points (electrical and acoustical), levels and time alignment set - actually one midbass has a 350hz LP and the other has a 400hz LP, just so I can meet my curve without a bunch of boost near the crossover point. But a 24dB LR acoustical slope is what I'm tuning towards.



    Obviously, there are lots of issues to fix with EQ there. So this is what things look like after my initial EQ work to match individual speakers to my curve:



    At this point, the door and dash speakers match my curve individually, but the combined L+R speaker pair measurements have the "phase" dips that I talked about above. So at this point, I fix those dips by adding equal amounts to both left and right speakers. This causes my individual speaker responses to no longer match the curve, but the combined L+R responses do match the curve for the most part now. However, now I go one step further and fix any issues with the *overall* response (all speakers playing), so that the overall response matches my original curve (the cyan line), which I *believe* is the end goal, correct - to get the response with all speakers playing to match your target curve?




    That was kind of the point of this thread - to see if I'm going about this the right way. Due to phase and/or reflection issues, I will never get the individual speakers responses, the L+R speaker responses AND the overall response to all match my target curve. I figured it's best to end up with the overall response to match the curve though....

    Thoughts?

    Thanks for the input - I appreciate it!

    TL;DR - To me, it seems more important for the *overall* response (all speakers playing) to match your target curve than for the individual speaker responses - or the combined L + R speaker responses, to match the curve. To me, the end goal would be to match your curve with ALL speakers playing, even if that does cause individual speaker or L+R speaker pair responses to no longer match the curve. In order to accomplish this, I first EQ individual speakers to my curve, then make adjustments so that L+R speaker pairs match the curve and finally make even more adjustments to make sure to match the curve with ALL speakers playing.
    Last edited by jtrosky; 03-11-2020 at 05:52 AM.

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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    I agree with you that the overall response (of all speakers at once) is the ultimate goal. Your process seems sound to me. As long as the crossovers (slope and cutoffs) are protecting the speakers.

    It begs the question though, why not tune an entire side of the car at once and skip the individual driver steps? This would seem to be ok as well, again, as long as you’re protecting your speakers appropriately.

    Maybe one way is more error prone? More trial and error? I’m not sure...

    This reminds me of the autoEQ functionality that Nick did the video on where you autoEQ the entire L side, then R side, then subwoofer, and then the entire car with relative EQ... (he didn’t bother autoEQing the individual drivers other than the subwoofer)


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    DIYMA Janitor SkizeR's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think of my tune?

    Quote Originally Posted by mauian View Post
    I agree with you that the overall response (of all speakers at once) is the ultimate goal. Your process seems sound to me. As long as the crossovers (slope and cutoffs) are protecting the speakers.

    It begs the question though, why not tune an entire side of the car at once and skip the individual driver steps? This would seem to be ok as well, again, as long as you’re protecting your speakers appropriately.

    Maybe one way is more error prone? More trial and error? I’m not sure...

    This reminds me of the autoEQ functionality that Nick did the video on where you autoEQ the entire L side, then R side, then subwoofer, and then the entire car with relative EQ... (he didn’t bother autoEQing the individual drivers other than the subwoofer)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    doing individual speakers instead of left vs right is a bit more accurate and ensures the crossover types and slopes are working as they should. Example - say the midbass drivers are crosssed from 80hz to 250hz with 24db slopes, and the midrange from 250 to 3000, also 24db slopes. Left midbass has a huge peak at 270hz, but the rest of the drivers do not. Doing left/right eq can result in the same overall response, but will have different responses from the different speaker locations and can cause some undesirable results in that region.

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