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Thread: Open Baffle Design

  1. Back To Top    #11

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    .

    SQ_Blaze is spot-on.

    Quote Originally Posted by SQ_Blaze View Post
    If you want to keep going from there, then you have to start looking at mounting acoustic panels on the side walls to treat those 1st and 2nd side reflections. Either use absorbing or diffusing panels, or a combination of the two. Going beyond that, you can also treat the front and rear walls, mount a "cloud" panel setup on the ceiling, place bass traps in all four corners of the room, and the list can easily go on and on, and costs go up and up.
    I also like to aim speakers 90-degrees away from the first side reflections on the walls, this way the side reflections are the 90-degree off-axis response which is essentially zero output, and this makes the walls disappear. I like that the speakers are less sensitive to the room in this way and I find them more accommodating to otherwise non-ideal rooms.

    Also I find I want more cone area in the lowest frequencies because my baffle size is not large enough to keep the rear wave from interacting with the front wave at my listening position. So I'm using a pair of ported 12" subs in addition to the four 10" woofers on the towers in addition to the 8" midbass drivers.

    I'm a bit of an open-baffle convert.

    Measure with mics, mark with chalk, cut with torch, grind to fit, sand to finish, paint to match.
    Do it for them.

  2. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    I know I keep getting told I’m wrong but SQ_Blaze, what you’re telling me about Open-Baffle flies in the face of everything I’ve learned about audio. Phase isn’t involved. Placement doesn’t matter.

    This guy might not be completely accurate either but most of his points checks with my knowledge of speakers and audio.

    https://hometheaterhifi.com/editoria...ed-technology/

  3. Back To Top    #13

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    Quote Originally Posted by dgage View Post
    So are we at least in agreement that OB needs larger midbass drivers to have the same amount of midbass as a non-OB comparable speaker. And if so, what is your thought on why that is required? If we don’t agree, we won’t agree as my performance requirements must be greater in my home theater.
    No.

    I feel that I'm repeating myself in this thread. The T/S parameters and baffle size are more important than the size of the driver where mid-bass is concerned. Also, the use of multiple small drivers works great as well.

    I would go into more detail, but I'm on my phone and on break at work.
    2001 Lexus LS430
    Pioneer DMH-2660NEX | Pioneer GM D1004 | Helix DSP.2 | Rockford Fosgate Power T400X4ad | Morel TiW 634Nd | Audison Prima AP1 | Dayton Audio Ultimax UM8-22

  4. Back To Top    #14

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Zazzi View Post
    .

    SQ_Blaze is spot-on.



    I also like to aim speakers 90-degrees away from the first side reflections on the walls, this way the side reflections are the 90-degree off-axis response which is essentially zero output, and this makes the walls disappear. I like that the speakers are less sensitive to the room in this way and I find them more accommodating to otherwise non-ideal rooms.

    Also I find I want more cone area in the lowest frequencies because my baffle size is not large enough to keep the rear wave from interacting with the front wave at my listening position. So I'm using a pair of ported 12" subs in addition to the four 10" woofers on the towers in addition to the 8" midbass drivers.

    I'm a bit of an open-baffle convert.

    I agree.
    2001 Lexus LS430
    Pioneer DMH-2660NEX | Pioneer GM D1004 | Helix DSP.2 | Rockford Fosgate Power T400X4ad | Morel TiW 634Nd | Audison Prima AP1 | Dayton Audio Ultimax UM8-22

  5. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    Quote Originally Posted by dgage View Post
    I know I keep getting told I’m wrong but SQ_Blaze, what you’re telling me about Open-Baffle flies in the face of everything I’ve learned about audio. Phase isn’t involved. Placement doesn’t matter.

    This guy might not be completely accurate either but most of his points checks with my knowledge of speakers and audio.

    https://hometheaterhifi.com/editoria...ed-technology/
    Not everything that reviews said is accurate. I've been dealing with OB designs for 20+ years now and have consulted personally via phone or email with Danny Richie, Nelson Pass and Siegfried Linkwitz. In fact, I started out with Siegfried.

    Again, I'm no expert and always learning, but I'm 99.9% sure I haven't been wrong on anything I've posted thus far in this thread.
    2001 Lexus LS430
    Pioneer DMH-2660NEX | Pioneer GM D1004 | Helix DSP.2 | Rockford Fosgate Power T400X4ad | Morel TiW 634Nd | Audison Prima AP1 | Dayton Audio Ultimax UM8-22

  6. Back To Top    #16

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    Quote Originally Posted by dgage View Post
    So are we at least in agreement that OB needs larger midbass drivers to have the same amount of midbass as a non-OB comparable speaker. And if so, what is your thought on why that is required? If we don’t agree, we won’t agree as my performance requirements must be greater in my home theater.
    Maybe we are all right. What if we combine all these statements together:

    If the baffle is "small" relative to the wavelength of the frequency you're interested in (bass), then the open-baffle design will not have as much output as a similarly-sized sealed baffle. To overcome the lower output, you can increase the cone area.

    If the baffle is "large" relative to the wavelength of the frequency you're interested in (midrange or treble),then the open-baffle design can have output similar to a sealed baffle around the same size.

    The open baffle design will interact with the room in a few unique ways such as having zero output at 90 degrees off axis which can make placement more interesting in a room but it can also make nearby side walls less of a problem because you can eliminate the first side reflections. Open baffle designs benefit from being placed away from the rear walls and having a room of a certain shape/size but the same can be said about any speaker of any design.

    I find the tradeoffs to be well worth it especially since I have the extra room and expertise to tinker with them. I'm also fortunate to have met Siegfried Linkwitz and demo'ed his LX521 at his home which is where I bought the plans for the ones I built, and I'm sad that he is no longer with us because he was a really wonderful person
    Measure with mics, mark with chalk, cut with torch, grind to fit, sand to finish, paint to match.
    Do it for them.

  7. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    My current system, running a pair of GR-Research X-Statik loudspeakers with highly upgraded crossovers per Danny Richie's recommendations. They use 6.5" drivers, all the same model, two in a sealed enclosure, and two on the OB. I've owned and used everything from big Martin Logan SL3's, NHT 2.9's, Klipsch Cornwall II's, Klipsch Heresy III's, several Monitor Audio models, a couple of Triangle models, several Sonus Faber models, a couple different Paradigm's, Quad ESL 63's, Carver Amazing Loudspeakers, and a few others I can't even remember, plus a plethora of DIY home builds.

    Out of all of them, with the exception of one of my very huge (7 feet tall) and ugly DIY OB's, these are the best sounding speakers I have ever owned or used in my systems. They just do almost everything right, and take up just as much floor space as a typical tower speaker. I've had these for over 12 years, and no matter how much I spend on other speakers, I keep coming back to these. They're that good.

    A few months back, we went to the Florida Audio Expo 2020. After listening to a good portion of the systems there, I came home to this system and feel that it holds its own pretty well to a lot of those super high dollar systems.

    And yes, it is a definite shame that Siegfried Linkwitz is no longer with us. He was an absolute pleasure to talk with. I wish I was fortunate enough to have met him in person like you did.

    2001 Lexus LS430
    Pioneer DMH-2660NEX | Pioneer GM D1004 | Helix DSP.2 | Rockford Fosgate Power T400X4ad | Morel TiW 634Nd | Audison Prima AP1 | Dayton Audio Ultimax UM8-22

  8. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Zazzi View Post
    The open baffle design will interact with the room in a few unique ways such as having zero output at 90 degrees off axis which can make placement more interesting in a room but it can also make nearby side walls less of a problem because you can eliminate the first side reflections. Open baffle designs benefit from being placed away from the rear walls and having a room of a certain shape/size but the same can be said about any speaker of any design.
    And I agree with this and more importantly this coordinates with the audio knowledge I (thought) I have. But SQ_Blaze mentioned open baffle wasn’t as sensitive to placement. I can’t imagine how an open baffle would work at my parent’s living room where he has book shelves behind his speakers. Whether front wave or back wave, audio waves will bounce off objects and change phase. Unlike normal speakers that only have one wave to worry about phase and phase coincidence, open baffle have two waves to interact with the room and other waves.

    By no means am I trying to say open baffle isn’t good. I don’t have any real experience with them to make that statement and I absolutely can see some potential benefits as well. But my knowledge will absolutely not let me reconcile that open baffle isn’t subject to placement and it’s environment more than a normal enclosed speaker. We’re not getting any where and I don’t currently have the time or opportunity to work with open baffle so I will bow out of this discussion. You two obviously have more knowledge and experience than I do about open baffle speakers. Thanks for sharing.

    And by the way, larger midbass drivers or multiple midbass drivers are synonymous to me. Both involve more cone area and displacement so at least my knowledge held up in one case.
    Last edited by dgage; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:48 PM.

  9. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    If you ever travel to the Phoenix area I'd love to give you a demo.
    Other than that, not sure how else to help.
    Cheers.
    Measure with mics, mark with chalk, cut with torch, grind to fit, sand to finish, paint to match.
    Do it for them.

  10. Back To Top    #20

    Re: Open Baffle Design

    Quote Originally Posted by dgage View Post
    And I agree with this and more importantly this coordinates with the audio knowledge I (thought) I have. But SQ_Blaze mentioned open baffle wasn’t as sensitive to placement.

    As I've said several times already in this thread, OB speakers do NOT interact with a room the same way traditional speakers do. With OB's, there's a LOT less room interaction, and they don't load and/or pressurize a room like traditional speakers do. OB's with their very minimal sound output 90 degrees to the side of the baffles is a major part as to why they are not extremely sensitive to room placement. They can be positioned a lot closer to the side walls due to this very reason without the ill effects that traditional speakers pose in the same location.

    If you still "can't imagine how", and you want to know how and why, then I urge you to get in contact with Danny Richie as he'll be able to tell you anything you want to know about OB's, and how and why they work the way they do.

    Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you. And with that, I think I'm pretty much done with this thread.
    2001 Lexus LS430
    Pioneer DMH-2660NEX | Pioneer GM D1004 | Helix DSP.2 | Rockford Fosgate Power T400X4ad | Morel TiW 634Nd | Audison Prima AP1 | Dayton Audio Ultimax UM8-22

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