Tonality vs RTA

[Queef]

so you have to be careful using reflections in a vehicle to widen a stage as it can be very hit and miss due to that very thing... beaming

Upping apparent enclosure size and then relecting sound is less than ideal , but if you are already ignoring physics (beam of laser like sound) "Why Not"

[dumdum]

Upping apparent enclosure size and then relecting sound is less than ideal , but if you are already ignoring physics (beam of laser like sound) "Why Not"

im not ignoring physics? I am saying it occurs and can have a bad effect IF you choose to use reflections

not sure what enclosure size has to do with what I said as I only spoke about using reflections

[Queef]

Here is a pic of the pods before install. I believe they are 5" tall, 4" wide, 1" back, 4" angled. Home plate shape, stuffed with polifil. They are definitely on the small side for the speaker, but the response isn't too bad RTA wise. The other pic is left and right mid with no EQ, crossed-over at 365/3900. I can't find a graph with them playing full range but I can make one if necessary.

Attachment 8548 Attachment 8549

I bought this speaker set strictly to learn with, I knew they could take a beating and give me decent results while I slowly built up knowledge on proper install methods and collected as much opinion on different drivers as I could. I go back and forth between Audiofrog GB set, the Hybrid Audio Legatia SE, or some Scan Speak/Dynaudio combination. I know all of these are very high quality gear, so I just need to pick what would work best with my truck, install skills, and overall sound I am trying to reproduce. Right now, I'm thinking about starting my upgrades with Mr. Marv's GB25 he has for sale in the classifieds section. We'll see. ;-)

EDIT: The pods must be 4x5x1x3 not 4 angled. Thanks JC!!

Not you ?
I thought guy above had issue , no ?

Cheers mate ! Trying to get "perfect" or bloody great sound after various , less than 'ideal' limitations.

[SkizeR]

I wasn't able to get an accurate enough measurement with that shape using Bassbox Pro but it is somewhere in the .0223 cu ft range or very close to that.

As you have it now in those pods (red)
Favored closed box seems to be .372 or infinite baffle. (orange)
Favored vented box seems to be .0984 cu ft tuned to 97.68 Hz (yellow)

Attachment 8561

I noticed you have those crossed over below what AD recommends. They recommend that the lowest HP be 400 Hz 24 db. They may say this because of distortion down low or they may be worried about the published power handling and warranty claims but never the less I would abide by what they say. You are using a HP of 3900 Hz when that driver starts beaming at 3500 Hz so you might benefit from lowering the crossover from mid to tweeter to 3500 Hz (maybe) or lower if the tweeter can handle it. This is because you hear direct sound differently than you hear reflected sounds but the RTA picks up reflected sound the same as direct sound so what you hear and what you see may be different when crossing above the beaming of a driver. If you EQ to compensate for the lack of direct sound than you may hear it differently than what the RTA shows. This could lead to the perception of a bright sound or harsh sound but every car will be different. You should LP your midrange at the point below beaming of the midrange driver but not so low that the tweeter isn't protected. You need to select a HP for the tweeter that is 1.5-2 times the resonant frequency of the tweeter (fs) to start and word on the side of protecting the tweeter from there. So if your tweeter can play comfortably to 3000 Hz or even 2500 Hz than that is where you should cross the midrange to the tweeter using LR4 crossovers. This should also make EQ at driver transitions easier so long as they are in phase and both have LR4 crossovers.

I don't have experience with Hybrid Audio but do with Dynaudio and AudioFrog and you won’t be disappointed with either of those choices. The scanspeak/Dynaudio might make for a good budget conscious decision and the AudioFrog will give you proven big low distortion output potential.

Driver beaming read http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Beaming.htm

This is what I was getting at in my first reply to this thread

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[Babs]

To be devil's advocate and throw a wrench in the works I'll point one thing from my own experience... I've had absolutely CRAPPY sounding tunes that looked beautiful on graph because of one thing.. Phase coherence.. Stage was off. Tonality was off. Imaging was off. It was just off off off.. Except when measured I had the drivers EQ'd so they measured up ok on the graph. This is why I individually EQ/level each driver including their slopes to an electrical target which includes the slopes.. Then I spend the biggest part of the time working on their alignment and phase coherence. Then only then will I mess with EQ'ing multiples down each side, and then still I'm just going to a flat target line. Once I know I've got them coherently in phase and accurate and flat, then I'll do a little boost on the lows (multiple drivers) with one shelf filter, and that's about it. Totally by ear because every car and system is different. Most people might think "but that's not enough bass just to bump low region some 6 db's"... When everything is very lined up throughout their crossover regions and between sides throughout, there's not much lacking believe me, because in the seat all drivers are complimenting each other and playing nice together.

[blockrocker]

To be devil's advocate and throw a wrench in the works I'll point one thing from my own experience... I've had absolutely CRAPPY sounding tunes that looked beautiful on graph because of one thing.. Phase coherence.. Stage was off. Tonality was off. Imaging was off. It was just off off off.. Except when measured I had the drivers EQ'd so they measured up ok on the graph. This is why I individually EQ/level each driver including their slopes to an electrical target which includes the slopes.. Then I spend the biggest part of the time working on their alignment and phase coherence. Then only then will I mess with EQ'ing multiples down each side, and then still I'm just going to a flat target line. Once I know I've got them coherently in phase and accurate and flat, then I'll do a little boost on the lows (multiple drivers) with one shelf filter, and that's about it. Totally by ear because every car and system is different. Most people might think "but that's not enough bass just to bump low region some 6 db's"... When everything is very lined up throughout their crossover regions and between sides throughout, there's not much lacking believe me, because in the seat all drivers are complimenting each other and playing nice together.

This is beautiful, thanks for the tips. I have always hoped to lure an EQ whale, such as yourself, into these conversations. Cheers Babs, I'll take the advice to heart and put a lot more time into each individual driver before Eqing as a side or whole.

May I ask how picky you get with smoothing your response to curve? IE: 1/3, 1/6, 1/24 smoothing etc. May I also ask for a few details on how you get everything in phase? Is it just measurements and tracerite calculator or is there a more advanced trick? Its great hearing from guys with so much experience.

Cheers!

[Brego]

Ditto to what BlockRocker said!!

What do you mean "electrical target which includes the slopes." I understand the difference between 'electrical' & 'Acoustical' Freq Response. So are you referring to using just the 'electrical' settings to flatten out the Freq Response before you apply any EQ'ing ? I 'm having a hard time to fully understand your method.... Could you expand a bit and explain with a lil more detail ?
'

[Jscoyne2]

To address OP first post and general tuning tips.

We tune to a curve because of IID(mostly this) and ITD need to be matched. And the general curve we follow(all house curves are basically the same with small changes in roll off and dips in midrange) is based on the munson curve and our varying sensitivity to varying frequencies.

That sensitivity actually changes based on spl levels. Also interestingly, crossovers actually change based on how much power you give them(I've never tested that but do remember reading it.) Most likely because of heat of passive coils. Maybe inductance. Honestly. Idk why.

If you tune to at 85db. And it sounds well and good. When you turn it up. Your crossovers change slightly causing a peak or dip at the xo point. Your hearing sensitivity also changes varying on frequencies. This is why it sounds bad at high volumes to you. I think we're more sensitive to high freq at higher spl.

The best way to tune is probably to do it at levels you normally listen to it at. I wear earplugs when i run my sweeps.

When I tune. I normally use as little EQ bands as possible with wide Q filters and get everything varyingly close together between left and right. Then i sit there with freq specific mono pink noise. 250hz. 350hz. 450hz. Ect and i start adding filters until each one sounds like it is on the center of my dash. This can be tricky as you get into the ITD range. It may take some t/a adjustment and Eq adjustment back and forth to get this right.

Rew is an Excellent program and great for beginners to learn and understand but never underestimate your greatest tool. Your own damn ears.

Also getting the crossover roll offs on each driver to sum perfectly to each other will do WONDERS to your stage and overall tonality. Use Jazzis tuning companion to get perfect crossover slopes to eq to based on your particular curve.

You will need Excel for this. It won't work on any excel-similiar program. The macro coding is different.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...4#post-5761031

Look at Wikipedias equal loudness curve page



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[blockrocker]

Great information, thanks Jscoyne2. I'll have to do some more reading this weekend. You're the second one to mention taking more time with the individual drivers and matching rolloffs. Cheers.

[Jscoyne2]

Great information, thanks Jscoyne2. I'll have to do some more reading this weekend. You're the second one to mention taking more time with the individual drivers and matching rolloffs. Cheers.

Looks like pics are dead but these are worth the read.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...y-imho.163914/

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...system.163234/

https://www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/

His time alignment 1-5

And especially this.

https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-co...y-it-Works.pdf

Lmk if that last link doesn't work.

On the last one. Pay particular attention to the part about beaming. Choosing crossover that keep your speakers well below beaming will make a noticable difference in your stage/tonality.

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