Tonality vs RTA

[Queef]

Do you have a graph of speaker from manufacturer ? Some speakers need "notch" filter when they get up there in higher range. The pod have any wool or polyfil in it ? Any felt around front edge of speaker ?
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/diffraction.htm

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/I...-the-speakers/

[blockrocker]

https://adcaraudio.com/store/product/admc334/

Overall the speaker does a lot of things well, I'm far from disappointed, but as I have become re-consumed by this hobby, I have slowly been refining my taste in sound. Training my ear, if you will, to what I like the best. I've heard some very good systems, including JimmyDee's new BMW, which is fucking amazing. And there are some things about my systems sound that I definitely do not want to change, but slowly the little things become more prominent to me. So I'm going to keep tinkering until I can decide and afford the stuff I want to install in a pretty way. Lol. Maybe Audiofrog 25's and 10's, with something in the 8 inch midbass range. Dreams...

[JCsAudio]

I can see that AD driver definitely working better in an infinite baffle setup as it has a high QTS of .72. It’s frequency response is a bit ragged so I also see that driver being possibly tough to EQ. Do you know the volume of the sealed enclosure it’s in as I can model it for you to predict what its behavior would be in relation to IB. Tonality has a lot to do with driver distortion characteristics of which a DSP cannot do much for, especially odd order distortion other than to try and bandpass the driver where the distortion is the least offensive. This is not to say this is a bad driver and no driver is without distortion somewhere within is limits of its passband. Sometimes playing around with the HP and LP filters or limiting the driver so that it doesn’t play loudly within those ranges helps a lot. You also have to work within the woofers and tweeters limits and avoid driver beaming as much as possible so it can be tricky. The good thing for you is you have a three way setup so that obviously makes this easier.

What are you running for a tweeter and midbass and what kind of amplification are you using? Typically I don’t say much about the equipment as tuning makes the biggest difference but there does come a point when your ears are getting trained and spoiled and you start to notice the limits of the equipment. This is especially true after you’ve had the opportunity to listen to a car with nicer low distortion equipment with a good tune by an experienced enthusiasts or better installer. This is one of the great things about Audiofrog GB series speakers. They have very low distortion, flat FR, and can play louder than most while still maintaining very low distortion within a wide passband. For an 8” midbass driver you could probably find a decent one from Parts Express for a three way on a budget or you could use something very nice like an AD W800. A driver like the AF GS690 would be a midbass monster too. Reach out to Nick at Appecella Auto Sound as I think he may be an AD dealer and he is also more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am.

[blockrocker]

Here is a pic of the pods before install. I believe they are 5" tall, 4" wide, 1" back, 4" angled. Home plate shape, stuffed with polifil. They are definitely on the small side for the speaker, but the response isn't too bad RTA wise. The other pic is left and right mid with no EQ, crossed-over at 365/3900. I can't find a graph with them playing full range but I can make one if necessary.



I bought this speaker set strictly to learn with, I knew they could take a beating and give me decent results while I slowly built up knowledge on proper install methods and collected as much opinion on different drivers as I could. I go back and forth between Audiofrog GB set, the Hybrid Audio Legatia SE, or some Scan Speak/Dynaudio combination. I know all of these are very high quality gear, so I just need to pick what would work best with my truck, install skills, and overall sound I am trying to reproduce. Right now, I'm thinking about starting my upgrades with Mr. Marv's GB25 he has for sale in the classifieds section. We'll see. ;-)

EDIT: The pods must be 4x5x1x3 not 4 angled. Thanks JC!!

[JCsAudio]

I wasn't able to get an accurate enough measurement with that shape using Bassbox Pro but it is somewhere in the .0223 cu ft range or very close to that.

As you have it now in those pods (red)
Favored closed box seems to be .372 or infinite baffle. (orange)
Favored vented box seems to be .0984 cu ft tuned to 97.68 Hz (yellow)



I noticed you have those crossed over below what AD recommends. They recommend that the lowest HP be 400 Hz 24 db. They may say this because of distortion down low or they may be worried about the published power handling and warranty claims but never the less I would abide by what they say. You are using a HP of 3900 Hz when that driver starts beaming at 3500 Hz so you might benefit from lowering the crossover from mid to tweeter to 3500 Hz (maybe) or lower if the tweeter can handle it. This is because you hear direct sound differently than you hear reflected sounds but the RTA picks up reflected sound the same as direct sound so what you hear and what you see may be different when crossing above the beaming of a driver. If you EQ to compensate for the lack of direct sound then you may hear it differently then what the RTA shows. This could lead to the perception of a bright sound or harsh sound but every car will be different. You should LP your midrange at the point below beaming of the midrange driver but not so low that the tweeter isn't protected. You need to select a HP for the tweeter that is 1.5-2 times the resonant frequency of the tweeter (fs) to start and word on the side of protecting the tweeter from there. So if your tweeter can play comfortably to 3000 Hz or even 2500 Hz then that is where you should cross the midrange to the tweeter using LR4 crossovers. This should also make EQ at driver transitions easier so long as they are in phase and both have LR4 crossovers.

I don't have experience with Hybrid Audio but do with Dynaudio and AudioFrog and you won’t be disappointed with either of those choices. The scanspeak/Dynaudio might make for a good budget conscious decision and the AudioFrog will give you proven big low distortion output potential.

Driver beaming read http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Beaming.htm

[blockrocker]

Wow, JC! Thanks so much for this effort. Those graphs are actually kind of eye opening. I never even considered a vented enclosure, very cool. Yes, I know that I have been running my mids a little wider than suggested on this particular tune. I believe the biggest risk is the power handling at the crossover range (why they suggest 400) and I am only giving the speaker 100 out of 150 watts rated. So hopefully I'm keeping it out of danger. As for the beaming, I have played with the LP on these things in so many spots, I can't seem to find a LP that I feel great about. I have LP them at 3500, 3800, 3950, 4050 and 4100 and they all seem to have that underlying sound I don't like. I never considered possible distortion at the HP side though. That's a good suggestion and I will adjust the XO's at the low end. I have played with them at 400+ but found that I could put more sound on the dash with the lower XO. I know that's not a great technique for achieving that, but figured to give it a try.

I can't thank you enough for the great suggestions. I will continue to play with my crossovers and see if I can keep making improvements. The closest way I can describe my "off sound", is like a conversation in an empty apartment. Not quite an echo, but definitely a hollower sound then when the place was filled with furniture and artwork. That sound seems to persist no matter how I crossover my speakers. However I will give these suggestions a try and report back. Cheers!!

[preston]

> The closest way I can describe my "off sound", is like a conversation in an empty apartment. Not quite an echo, but definitely a hollower sound then when the place was filled with furniture and artwork.

Ignoring theory, that to me sounds like a too small of a speaker box. Could be wrong, that's just how I would describe the sound when I've done the same thing (Have you tried taking the speaker out and maybe just towel wrapping it or temp IB setup ?). Bumping up the HP might also work around this.

[blockrocker]

Thanks Preston. I'm starting to think the same thing about the enclosure. Just a little too small and not letting the speaker perform to its fullest. I'm thinking its time to get a speaker that fits in a small box a little better, since I don't want to chop up the new truck too much with another kind of install, at the moment.

Its funny you mention it, but I just saw another person using a towel to help determine speaker placement etc. I will try to find some time in the next few days to experiment with that trick. Cheers!

[Queef]

If stuffing didn't modify your sound ? A little less than what you added to "smooth" out ?
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/I...-the-speakers/

When speakers are aimed @ side windows it helps with beaming (reflection/bouncing sound)

[dumdum]

If stuffing didn't modify your sound ? A little less than what you added to "smooth" out ?
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/I...-the-speakers/

When speakers are aimed @ side windows it helps with beaming (reflection/bouncing sound)

that it may, however if it’s only at certain freqs it will potentially ruin a centre image and diffuse it by effecting the perceived location of speakers at certain frequencys, if the speaker doesn’t act like a point source how can the centre also be a point source?

it always makes me laugh when people say that certain songs cause the width to be out by the edge of the mirror, and some songs are from the speaker itself... if both sides behaviour is identical then all is good, however if both sides are different at given frequencys the centre will only ever present between the positions, for example if the drivers side speaker acts like a point source and all sound comes from it and the passenger side behaves like it’s approx 12” wide but frequency dependant the centre will then be 6” wide and frequency dependant, so male and female vocals may appear to come from slightly different centre locations or be diffused

so you have to be careful using reflections in a vehicle to widen a stage as it can be very hit and miss due to that very thing... beaming