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Thread: Sexual intercorsa...

  1. Back To Top    #151

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    My fingers are covered in superglue and fibreglass... it’s a 9mm plus plus superglue carcass with tho fixing points to the a pillar currently, but those two alone make them so solid it amazed me...

    then I fibreglassed the inside with fibre glass filler when they were half built as I don’t have any resin handy for a milkshake mix

    then I cut the sides and made the front section with contours up with strips of ply super glued on and then filleted over them, and pressed the mix through the gaps and smooshed it around the inside also, ensuring all the wood is wrapped and glasses up

    the holes don’t match left to right, but I’ll just adjust one side or the other when I know they are good, but for now I have two days worth of effort gone into cutting, working out and making this come together...

    the fishing pellets came in handy again, once the glass is dry I will measure again, but when I filled them up loose I worked out 3l, I need 2.5 so with the side in it should be about right for a Q of 0.707 👍🏼
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  2. Back To Top    #152

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    So I chucked the pods in last off and improvised the tweeters, tomorrow is phase alignment check, then tune the mids and tweeters, I’m going to have a reset and have a go with a half whitledge curve
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  3. Back To Top    #153

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Man - you got wood


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. Back To Top    #154

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    As you can imagine I like this setup a lot better - much safer to have the real dash in there. Those Satori's are a great choice, and who doesn't love a 6+" driver on the dash. Really digging all the details you are giving us.
    I'd rather run IB all day long than an enormous box filling the whole trunk but I get it, and its a dedicated audio car. Amazed you could get 3 liters of airspace, I struggled with that with my large-ish dash pods but I guess I wasn't willing to cut into the dash for more airspace (I ended up venting mine after building them sealed running the 5.5" Satoris).

  5. Back To Top    #155

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Quote Originally Posted by preston View Post
    As you can imagine I like this setup a lot better - much safer to have the real dash in there. Those Satori's are a great choice, and who doesn't love a 6+" driver on the dash. Really digging all the details you are giving us.
    I'd rather run IB all day long than an enormous box filling the whole trunk but I get it, and its a dedicated audio car. Amazed you could get 3 liters of airspace, I struggled with that with my large-ish dash pods but I guess I wasn't willing to cut into the dash for more airspace (I ended up venting mine after building them sealed running the 5.5" Satoris).
    the new pods are with 13cm I would have to vent the 16cm satoris... also the boot is still up for development as is everything in this car, I am still debating on source units to play into the topping...

    I ended up with a a fraction over 2.5 litres in the end when I measured them, they want lining with deadener to add some mass and then some Dacron adding, but a two day job inc the dash deadening and rebuilding the heater box top...

    I didn’t like the aesthetics of the front sub and how it would end up looking, it didn’t please the eye and was a bit too bulky I think, the underseat midbass solved the 100hz suckout and it now sounds more complete, now it’s find a spot for the tweeters where they behave the most like a point source (I currently have a reflection that’s quite bad in the drivers side window which effects the centre at approx 8-11khz, it’s very possible that turning the tweeter more off axis may help, as perhaps may moving the tweeter Away from the window physically to make the reflection have a later arrival of the reflection helping the brain ignore it somewhat, or even move it closer to the window so the direct and reflected sound appear closer and as one, there will be a nice compromise somewhere along the way, the bigger tweeter should beam a little earlier, so that may help also...

  6. Back To Top    #156

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Those Satori's (mr-13p) are great mid-ranges, period. But when you factor in the price they are phenomenal. I've got them in both of my vehicles. I have them free vented into the dashboard in one vehicle, but built sealed pods for dash mounting in the other. I never measured my dash pods as they were as big as I could get them. I would estimate them at 100cu inches, or 1.5 liters. They sounded okay but measured a very high rising response in the lower frequencies so probably were too small (thankfully a 300Hz x-over eliminated any of this area). I drilled a 1" hole in the pods that "vented" into a thick dash pad, so almost an aperiodic enclosure LOL, and while they didn't measure significantly different the sound improved slightly (less strain in the mid range vocals). So just a long winded way of saying sealed or open, still an open question on mid ranges for me.

    How do you determine that about the tweeter reflections ? are you listening to tones and literally hearing it move over at that frequency ? I'd be very interested in hearing that and then moving the tweeter and "observing" the effect. Obviously that's not gonna happen beings as how I live in the north western US, but I"m always curious when people start talking about "using the reflections" or "I had a bad reflection". I'm just not sure how they are determining that. Maybe I"ve been lucky with my placements, once I get a good tune in I rarely have a problem with the image moving around. My center is usually very solid (although I do sometimes feel like certain sounds can localize in the left or right speaker too much, but this also seems to be very heavily dependent on the source recording so I usually don't blame the system).

  7. Back To Top    #157

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Quote Originally Posted by preston View Post
    Those Satori's (mr-13p) are great mid-ranges, period. But when you factor in the price they are phenomenal. I've got them in both of my vehicles. I have them free vented into the dashboard in one vehicle, but built sealed pods for dash mounting in the other. I never measured my dash pods as they were as big as I could get them. I would estimate them at 100cu inches, or 1.5 liters. They sounded okay but measured a very high rising response in the lower frequencies so probably were too small (thankfully a 300Hz x-over eliminated any of this area). I drilled a 1" hole in the pods that "vented" into a thick dash pad, so almost an aperiodic enclosure LOL, and while they didn't measure significantly different the sound improved slightly (less strain in the mid range vocals). So just a long winded way of saying sealed or open, still an open question on mid ranges for me.

    How do you determine that about the tweeter reflections ? are you listening to tones and literally hearing it move over at that frequency ? I'd be very interested in hearing that and then moving the tweeter and "observing" the effect. Obviously that's not gonna happen beings as how I live in the north western US, but I"m always curious when people start talking about "using the reflections" or "I had a bad reflection". I'm just not sure how they are determining that. Maybe I"ve been lucky with my placements, once I get a good tune in I rarely have a problem with the image moving around. My center is usually very solid (although I do sometimes feel like certain sounds can localize in the left or right speaker too much, but this also seems to be very heavily dependent on the source recording so I usually don't blame the system).
    Mine are the mw13p-4 not the dedicated midrange as I need then to play well below 200 so the crossover region is flattish before I apply the crossover (I always try and flatten the response 1 octave below the crossover point so that the crossover slope is also accurate, you can then adjust the crossover up and down a little without effecting the summation)

    it’s the hardest part of placing drivers, the easiest way to check is to play only the one speaker, mids and midbass can also do it also... my old van used to present a 500hz tone in the centre of the dash from the passenger side midbass, try centring that with the other speaker, it was physically impossible

    basically you need 1/3 octave tones, switch off the drivers side for a start as the passenger side is most likely worse, then work your way through the tones, in an ideal world you will locate all the tones at the drivers themselves (this is why well placed vertical arrays are often better than say a sail panel and a dash midrange (you then get different edges to your sound stage and the two edges will be on different locations if you see what I mean)

    aiming too far over the car with tweeters often gives a big reflection from the drivers side window which then gives input to the drivers side ear which can pull the sound from the position of the speaker across the screen

    The centre image being stable counts on both sides being stable, in the midrange and midbass it’s more about phase, and higher up as you transition to shorter wavelengths it becomes more level dominant, hence why late reflections can pull certain freqs across more at higher freqs especially where tweeters are beaming and often have lots of energy if aimed too far over the car, that’s what I mean by balancing reflections with tweeters... you don’t hear them all, but the perceived location of the drivers will move as you adjust the aim to a small degree, it’s easier to listen to, I can illustrate it easily by placing drivers wrong where I know they get bad reflections, distance from the screen also counts as that can influence the perceived location of the sound

    that is also why I have placed the midrange drivers in my system (I have tried roughly 20 locations for the mids when I just had half a dash and a midbass in a 0.8l tub, the response was skewed but the propagation remains the same, I then used a laser to align the drivers in the current pods to the same spot), the location of the mids in my case presents just outside the drivers location at roughly the door rubbers, I now need to make the tweeters present in the same location also, I will make some brackets up to hold the tweeters above the mids and then angle them wherever I need to until the reflection from left and right of the driver balances as best it can, further over the opposite side becomes dominant, further out the near side becomes more dominant

    the principle is that when you time align drivers you can do it by the tape measure, a lot of people then find the centre isn’t central even though both sides are perfectly level matched, this is normally due to reflections, as an example case the drivers side driver reflects in the side window and the passenger side appears to come from a small way across the screen, the centre By tape doesn’t make allowances for this and merely appears half way between both perceived locations so a little way off centre, it is made worse when some frequencys are each side of the driver as that then gives multiple frequency dependant centres and so the centre then sounds diffused and not defined as a point in space

    a top flight Emma car will have pin point left and right which then makes the centre superb and very well focused... and all the points in between are also subject to the lack of focus if you see where I’m coming from
    Last edited by dumdum; 05-26-2020 at 01:55 PM.

  8. Back To Top    #158

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Wow that's a great post. Lot of information in there. I"m gonna re-read it a couple of times !

  9. Back To Top    #159

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Interesting stuff.

    2 questions.

    1. I've considered underseat midbass quite a bit but don't we always try to keep our drivers as wide as possible for stage width? Sure underseat probably has better response but is it at a trade to stage width? Whats your thoughts?

    2. Have you tried Dirac live in the minidsp 8x12Dl? I think you may be missing out on the raw power of the iir/fir hybrid filters that it does.

  10. Back To Top    #160

    Re: Sexual intercorsa...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
    Interesting stuff.

    2 questions.

    1. I've considered underseat midbass quite a bit but don't we always try to keep our drivers as wide as possible for stage width? Sure underseat probably has better response but is it at a trade to stage width? Whats your thoughts?

    2. Have you tried Dirac live in the minidsp 8x12Dl? I think you may be missing out on the raw power of the iir/fir hybrid filters that it does.
    1, as you get width information and this the placement of instruments in the stage from midrange for the most part, floor mounted midbass playing from approx 150-200hz down doesn’t give much... if any influence on stage width, once it’s in phase and balanced left to right the midbass doesn’t pull the stage one way or another, if I was playing upto say 500hz with a smaller midrange I would then have maybe considered a slightly different solution, for example positioning them as far away as I could up the bulkhead perhaps, but that’s a hole different task

    if I felt they detracted from width I would lower the crossover as 150hz is just about where mono information happens... not to be confused with locatable, however from my experience and that of tonny Evers (Dutch Emma master sq champion for a few years) who has been there and done that playing a dash or underseat midbass upto 150 doesn’t detract from positioning in the stage

    my 5” satoris would be fine crossed at 100, but the phase issue would be in the crossover slope then and potentially detract a little from the blend so to speak, the dash mids could also be rolled off a little more with 18 or even a 12db slope to add more midbass information to the dash locations, but so far I’ve not felt any detriment from the under seat subs

    alsp the passenger side midbass is actually on a wider line than the mid, the drivers side is only maybe 6” inside the line. So pulling is limited in that sense also

    the time alignment and phase settings to get good coherence through the crossover region where I need it was a little off the wall with both midbass being polarity inverted and the distance measurement went out of the window, but the summation was a lot better with it how it is, and side to side gets a full 6db in the midbass region which is excellent

    i will also add that while you do want drivers as wide as possible, you also need them as above to be perceived as being equally as wide as other drivers which influence width, so generally mids and tweeters if they are crossed over 2-3k (think of the times you’ve played a song and it sounds like it comes from the mirrors, but other songs don’t have that width... that’s a good example of a small fault that will be picked up by the technical tracks in Emma, all left information should come from the same point in space (nowt I didn’t say from the speaker as certain times if done right you can get a little extra width from clever positioning)

    2, I had considered the Dirac live, however it can’t correct length/width/height derived modal phase issues, as they are a result of direct and reflected sound from the same speaker, and you can’t correct one without the other being effected, what that may do is correct sided to side differences, but as both sides of the car have the exact same moral issue due to length Dirac simply won’t solve that particular issue, take erins videos where he was talking about playing subwoofers higher to avoid the phase issue in midbass, he uses Dirac so while it may help in some places and do a superb job it won’t solve everything...

    I should add I’m also in a budget limited class so I’ve swapped to a processor that is approx 60% of the cost of a mini dsp so it’s a bit beyond budget, if I wasn’t my ultra that’s tucked up in my wardrobe would be in like a flash (dsp.3 is €499 on the Emma price list... mini dsp would be €800 at least... and the ultra will be 1500 I predict )
    Last edited by dumdum; 05-29-2020 at 10:25 AM.

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