Tune #2

[blockrocker]

Hi again folks!

In case you couldn't tell, I have been really enjoying the tuning practice recently. I thought I would show you guys my second tune. I used Justin Zazzi curve this time. This curve sounds great at high levels but maybe not quite as refined at moderate volumes, when compared to my first tune. I think this prctice session was my best yet, but I am all ears, if anyone has any suggestions for improvement.

I have been tuning in this sequence:

Rough TA, rough crossovers, eq each driver flat, level match drivers, eq pairs flat, final crossovers, eq driver sets to curve, phase and final TA.

I think it has been working well, but have been slowly learning new tricks from this forum. Phase has been my toughest challenge. I'm not sure I have gotten it right yet, but every time I practice, I get it closer and closer. Fun Stuff!

Please let me know what you think....even if you think its a hot mess. Lol. 1/6 and 1/48 again.

[JCsAudio]

TA and crossovers should be first and if you get that right than phase should fall into place if you cross over before driver beaming becomes a problem. Phase between the midbass the sub stage with a hot sub stage can be fixed with a 1/2 octave gap between them. Use 24 db LR4 crossovers also as those work the best overall. When you EQ each driver you should EQ each one to your target curve and not just call it flat. Then you EQ the left side only all playing together and then make the right side match the left side in both EQ and level so the stage is centered. Double triple check that you have speaker polarity correct or you will be chasing your tail trying to correct problems that shouldn't be problems if set up correctly.

[blockrocker]

TA and crossovers should be first and if you get that right than phase should fall into place if you cross over before driver beaming becomes a problem. Phase between the midbass the sub stage with a hot sub stage can be fixed with a 1/2 octave gap between them. Use 24 db LR4 crossovers also as those work the best overall. When you EQ each driver you should EQ each one to your target curve and not just call it flat. Then you EQ the left side only all playing together and then make the right side match the left side in both EQ and level so the stage is centered. Double triple check that you have speaker polarity correct or you will be chasing your tail trying to correct problems that shouldn't be problems if set up correctly.

Great tips, thank you so much. I have been using 24 db LW crossovers, but will skip tuning flat first, and tune directly to curve next time. I have also been focusing on balancing tweet pairs and mid pairs etc. instead of focusing on each side of the car. I will definitely work on doing that too in the next tune. Matching left and right makes more sense than driver pairs. My center is center but not terribly focused, so that should help.

I'm already excited for tune #3. Thanks for the advice!

[JCsAudio]

What do you have for a setup? 2 way, 3 way front stage, drivers used and size? Power used? Rear fill? Type of subwoofer and power used for it and box type and construction (ported/sealed)? What crossovers and type are you using for each driver and why did you choose them? How are you setting time alignment? How are you measuring your response with the RTA and pink noise? How are you checking polarity?

All that stuff matters. The RTA is two dimensional that gives clues but doesn’t tell the whole story and a tune that is bad can be made to look good on an RTA if you try hard enough.

[blockrocker]

All that stuff matters. The RTA is two dimensional that gives clues but doesn’t tell the whole story and a tune that is bad can be made to look good on an RTA if you try hard enough.

This is actually my fear right now. Its my first three way active setup. Basshead trying to learn SQ. 3.5" mid and 25mm tweet in 3d printed pods on the dashboard. 6.5" woofers in the door. I tried my best to seal and dampen the door, but also have some improvements to make in that department. I have a 15" Fi BTL-3 powered with a Crescendo S1+. An Mmats 6150 6 channel power the speakers. No real fill. Helix Dsp.3 My box is 4.5 cubes ported bass reflex designed specifically for the sub, to try to maximize the linearity. I know its not a SQ sub, but I'm still trying to wean myself of the basshead lifestyle. :-)

I would honestly like to be able to do both styles with my setup one day. 140-150 in spl and a true competition install and tune for SQ. Not necessarily the same tune, but the flexibility to do both.

Edit: Power is 25oorms on sub and 100rms on each other driver.

Crossovers sub 80, woofs 80/375, mids 395/3950, tweets 4200. I set these after expanding them very wide to find where the speakers roll off at. It took a few tries to get the sound right, since my woofs and tweets can be used 2-way, but I added the mid to the set and make it 3 way. Polarity I checked with tones and ear, just seeing if flipping htem made a difference-it did not. Finally, I measure using a Behringer mic I got cheap and an old SPL disc with clean pink noise. I do this with my volume set to 32/35 - the same volume I use to set my amp gains with a DMM.

I love the input!! Please keep it coming!

[blockrocker]

I should also mention that I use the tracerite calculator for most of my TA (i make small adjustments with tones to try to center stuff up a bit too), measured with a tape to the headrest. Also, dumdum has been showing me how to use REW to its full potential. I don't want to give away any personal information, but he is a qualified audio enthusiast in the UK who has honed his skills in both SPL and SQ competitively. So I trust what I'm learning, just trying to absorb from people who walk the walk. He has been very patient with this eager noob! I really appreciate the feedback.

[JCsAudio]

Block, one things for certain you do not want to use time alignment to center an image. It can be done but its not the best way to do it. That is what level matching is for. You use the tape measure to the center of your listening position (center of your head), set it, and forget it. I know of Dumdum from DIYMA as I think he has been there for a long time where I recently came from. I will have to get to the rest later and give you something you can work with. In the meantime make sure you have your polarity correct. You obviously want to check wiring and if its right than no issues but you can also varify with a simple phone app and polarity checker that sends pop sounds through your speakers while the phone reads them as + or -. Its a sanity check I use especially when your not running all new wiring from the amplifier to the speakers.

Your equipment seems very good and a three way is actually easier to tune than a two way so you have that going for you too. I have no experience with bandpass boxes but FI Audio makes some nice subwoofers and I'm sure you can shape that sub stage into what you need with your DSP. In the meantime it would help if you posted a graph of the sub stage with no EQ and no other speakers playing at a normal listening level, just the sub stage with cabin gain in the graph. Also if you have the JBL curve than that is the curve that I recommend to try, just for the reason that its been around a long time and proven to sound the best among a lot of people. The AudioFrog Curve is almost the same and both were made by the same guy, Andy Wehmeyer.

[lowcel]

This is actually my fear right now. Its my first three way active setup. Basshead trying to learn SQ. 3.5" mid and 25mm tweet in 3d printed pods on the dashboard. 6.5" woofers in the door. I tried my best to seal and dampen the door, but also have some improvements to make in that department. I have a 15" Fi BTL-3 powered with a Crescendo S1+. An Mmats 6150 6 channel power the speakers. No real fill. Helix Dsp.3 My box is 4.5 cubes ported bass reflex designed specifically for the sub, to try to maximize the linearity. I know its not a SQ sub, but I'm still trying to wean myself of the basshead lifestyle. :-)

I would honestly like to be able to do both styles with my setup one day. 140-150 in spl and a true competition install and tune for SQ. Not necessarily the same tune, but the flexibility to do both.

Edit: Power is 25oorms on sub and 100rms on each other driver.

Crossovers sub 80, woofs 80/375, mids 395/3950, tweets 4200. I set these after expanding them very wide to find where the speakers roll off at. It took a few tries to get the sound right, since my woofs and tweets can be used 2-way, but I added the mid to the set and make it 3 way. Polarity I checked with tones and ear, just seeing if flipping htem made a difference-it did not. Finally, I measure using a Behringer mic I got cheap and an old SPL disc with clean pink noise. I do this with my volume set to 32/35 - the same volume I use to set my amp gains with a DMM.

I love the input!! Please keep it coming!

Years ago a basshead was told that a basshead could never do SQ. That basshead now has his name on the Culberson Cup more than any other person. So, it's certainly possible to convert.

[blockrocker]

Block, one things for certain you do not want to use time alignment to center an image. It can be done but its not the best way to do it. That is what level matching is for. You use the tape measure to the center of your listening position (center of your head), set it, and forget it. I know of Dumdum from DIYMA as I think he has been there for a long time where I recently came from. I will have to get to the rest later and give you something you can work with. In the meantime make sure you have your polarity correct. You obviously want to check wiring and if its right than no issues but you can also varify with a simple phone app and polarity checker that sends pop sounds through your speakers while the phone reads them as + or -. Its a sanity check I use especially when your not running all new wiring from the amplifier to the speakers.

Your equipment seems very good and a three way is actually easier to tune than a two way so you have that going for you too. I have no experience with bandpass boxes but FI Audio makes some nice subwoofers and I'm sure you can shape that sub stage into what you need with your DSP. In the meantime it would help if you posted a graph of the sub stage with no EQ and no other speakers playing at a normal listening level, just the sub stage with cabin gain in the graph. Also if you have the JBL curve than that is the curve that I recommend to try, just for the reason that its been around a long time and proven to sound the best among a lot of people. The AudioFrog Curve is almost the same and both were made by the same guy, Andy Wehmeyer.

Great tip about the TA, I will do just that, set it and forget it. I have ran new wiring through the entire truck to try to avoid any polarity issues. I have checked, believe it is good, but will check again.

I also have several different curves that I have been practicing with, including JBL and audiofrog. I just mix it up for practice.

I've also sent dumdum many more questions and graphs - so will get another dose of education in the near future. In the mean time I really appreciate you taking the time to help me learn too. I'll see if I have a sub graph too, if not I'll take a measurement.

Cheers!

Note: I have a 80 crossover set on this graph, I'll have to take another pic without a crossover if needed. Just let me know.

[blockrocker]

Years ago a basshead was told that a basshead could never do SQ. That basshead now has his name on the Culberson Cup more than any other person. So, it's certainly possible to convert.

Thats awesome!!
I certainly understand that I have to cut my teeth still but I love this hobby and hope to blow some minds one day!
Thanks for the support, this place is great for that.