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Thread: Tune well and the SQ will come

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    Noob JCsAudio's Avatar
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    Tune well and the SQ will come

    Ok, so just trying to get some topics going on this forum and wanted to share an experience I had this past week. So I have three vehicles in the family all with two way active front stage with ported subwoofers. This vehicle has the least expensive equipment of all of them but still nice low distortion stuff. If anyone has a decent amount of tuning experience you will eventually find out that tuning a two way is somewhat difficult. My wife’s Sienna van has had the same tune in it for over a year and I’ve actually come a long way in tuning skills since I tuned that vehicle. My wife was complaining of lack of bass from the ported Alpine SWS 10 so I took out the microphone and REW and started measuring so I could diagnose it. Turns out the subwoofer somehow was 180 degrees out of phase with the midwoofers and the tune was all over the place. I spent about 2 hours tuning and completely redid the tune from scratch. I thought this vehicle sounded decent before but damn it sounds fantastic now. I sat in this vehicle afterwards just sampling song after song and thinking to myself it should not sound as good as it does. My wife has already commend on how much better it sounds too. All this too when I was starting to think about maybe upgrading some of the drivers in this vehicle but now it sounds so good that there is no need for that. There is a lot of hidden potential in tuning that should be explored before you blame the equipment. It makes a huge difference!

    Also, these SB Acoustics SB29RDNC tweeters are just fantastic low distortion tweeters that work great off axis in dash locations and can cross very low. I have these at 2200Hz now LR4 and they could probably go even lower.

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    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    What size box do you have the sub in? I have the same sub in a ported box (not sure the size, branded BB I think).

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    Dickhead SublimeZ's Avatar
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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    I run mid level gear, in a sound install. My tuner makes it the equal (if not superior) to systems that cost 4-5x more.


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    A Refined Basshead blockrocker's Avatar
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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    I have been learning with my first DSP (helix.3) this year. As well as tackling the nuances of REW. Its been so much fun and has opened me up to what a good stereo really sounds like. The best decision I have made so far, was choosing a mid-range 3 way speaker setup, and forcing myself to learn to tune and get the most out of the gear first, instead of just reaching for the top shelf stuff. I'm sure I would have been very disappointed with the results too, since I had zero experience with tuning and would have had huge expectations with pricey gear. Instead I love my speakers and am proud of the progress the tuning has made. I have a long way to go, but its nice to still have some room to grow-gear wise.

    What recommendations would you give a beginner/intermediate tuner to help hone the skill? I have scoured the internet for quality lessons and videos with mixed results. Ragsdale youtube vids and hounding Skiz on reddit have been my best resources so far. I find myself a little stuck between feeling comfortable with the basics but struggling to wrap my mind around some of the more advanced theory.
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

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    Noob JCsAudio's Avatar
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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefgeek View Post
    What size box do you have the sub in? I have the same sub in a ported box (not sure the size, branded BB I think).
    Trying to remember the exact size because I built it over a year ago but I think its about 1.15 cu ft tuned to 31.5 Hz (verified with test) and I used a 3” Precision flared port.

    Quote Originally Posted by blockrocker View Post
    I have been learning with my first DSP (helix.3) this year. As well as tackling the nuances of REW. Its been so much fun and has opened me up to what a good stereo really sounds like. The best decision I have made so far, was choosing a mid-range 3 way speaker setup, and forcing myself to learn to tune and get the most out of the gear first, instead of just reaching for the top shelf stuff. I'm sure I would have been very disappointed with the results too, since I had zero experience with tuning and would have had huge expectations with pricey gear. Instead I love my speakers and am proud of the progress the tuning has made. I have a long way to go, but its nice to still have some room to grow-gear wise.
    You actually made the right choice going 3-way because believe it or not a 3 way is easier to tune than a two way. This is because the passband for each driver is less (if chosen correctly) and so it should be within the widest dispersion of each driver so that the reflected sounds emulate or are as close to the direct sounds as possible. When you EQ a driver you are EQing the direct sound and if the reflected sounds are different because you are into driver beaming than it becomes much more difficult to get a response that is smooth and matches your target curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by blockrocker View Post
    What recommendations would you give a beginner/intermediate tuner to help hone the skill? I have scoured the internet for quality lessons and videos with mixed results. Ragsdale youtube vids and hounding Skiz on reddit have been my best resources so far. I find myself a little stuck between feeling comfortable with the basics but struggling to wrap my mind around some of the more advanced theory.
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!
    It took me a long time to nail down a legitimate process and a lot of research to understand why or what I was doing. I started with a lot of trial and error at first just like everyone else just messing around to gain some experience and then slowly built on that while learning how everything works together. First you need to develope a process that works and stick with it. Andy Wehmeyer from AudioFrog has a lot of great information on that. You need to understand why you use that process and you need to have an understanding of the concepts of speaker driver beaming and dispersion, crossover types and what works best, parametric EQ and how to use it, speaker distortion characteristics and why it matters, time alignment and what it actually does, basic driver Thiele Small Parameters, phase and it’s relationship to time alignment and frequency response, and much more. If you have a basic understanding of these concepts than it becomes much easier to build upon these concepts and develop a process that can be repeated over and over with great results.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    Quote Originally Posted by SublimeZ View Post
    I run mid level gear, in a sound install. My tuner makes it the equal (if not superior) to systems that cost 4-5x more.
    Nothing wrong with that and I’ve done the same. Installation practices/techniques and tuning are a major contributing factor in what makes a system sound great. I originally used the stock Ford woofers and cheap Tang Bang tweeters from Parts Express with surprisingly great results. The shortcomings of the stock driver eventually showed with very high volume but at normal listening levels it was great.

    In my Sienna the Alpine Subwoofer costs just $89, the DSP just $150, the 4ch amplifier I bought used for $60, the tweeters for just $130, the midwoofers for $280, and the mono amplifier (JBL GTX 500) for just $99. Nothing high end here but it is solid low distortion equipment that just works. The equipment in my CX5 cost much much more yet it doesn’t sound much much better. Throw in wiring, sound deadening, and the Pioneer HU and I still haven’t spent much more than $1600.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    A Refined Basshead blockrocker's Avatar
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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    Quote Originally Posted by JCsAudio View Post
    It took me a long time to nail down a legitimate process and a lot of research to understand why or what I was doing. I started with a lot of trial and error at first just like everyone else just messing around to gain some experience and then slowly built on that while learning how everything works together. First you need to develope a process that works and stick with it. Andy Wehmeyer from AudioFrog has a lot of great information on that. You need to understand why you use that process and you need to have an understanding of the concepts of speaker driver beaming and dispersion, crossover types and what works best, parametric EQ and how to use it, speaker distortion characteristics and why it matters, time alignment and what it actually does, basic driver Thiele Small Parameters, phase and it’s relationship to time alignment and frequency response, and much more. If you have a basic understanding of these concepts than it becomes much easier to build upon these concepts and develop a process that can be repeated over and over with great results.
    Thanks for the response. I have been reading some of Andy's posts in other forums, and the information is fantastic. I'm slowly understanding some of the relationships between phase/t.a and beaming and dispersal etc. I think my personal problem is that I'm much more of a visual learner and after trying to absorb the material, I'm still not sure how to actually apply the principals to my tune. Or what to look for with my RTA that would show the relationships in real time. I'm almost in need of a hands on tuning lesson where someone can demonstrate the reactions and show such relationships. I'd love to take a course with mobile solutions or Audiofrog University, but I'm not in the industry, and am afraid most of the info is still too advanced for me.

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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    Quote Originally Posted by blockrocker View Post
    Thanks for the response. I have been reading some of Andy's posts in other forums, and the information is fantastic. I'm slowly understanding some of the relationships between phase/t.a and beaming and dispersal etc. I think my personal problem is that I'm much more of a visual learner and after trying to absorb the material, I'm still not sure how to actually apply the principals to my tune. Or what to look for with my RTA that would show the relationships in real time. I'm almost in need of a hands on tuning lesson where someone can demonstrate the reactions and show such relationships. I'd love to take a course with mobile solutions or Audiofrog University, but I'm not in the industry, and am afraid most of the info is still too advanced for me.
    You can reach out to SlizeR who is the owner of Appecella Autosound. He does remote access tuning sessions over the phone with you while he controls your computer and could probably teach you a lot. I know he is an expert in tuning and can explain these things well. There is a fee of course but there should be to use his expertise and I bet it would be a lot cheaper than attending one of those classes. Also YouTube Mark at CarAudioFabrication, his videos are very informative and I believe he touches on many of these subjects.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Noob Jdunk54nl's Avatar
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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    This is why everyone should have a friend like Justin Zazzi. What I have learned from him about tuning and audio in a very short time is astounding. We just got together for breakfast this morning and what I learned in a 5 minute conversation about tuning subs was awesome!

    I've learned a lot about phase, and it was actually a visual demo that explained so much. Something REW can do, but much more complicated.

    I am also going to hold him hostage until he helps me tune using much better software than REW (Smaart)....

    I seriously get done talking to him and know more, so go back and re-do the tune in my wife's SUV....(My truck needs some additional stuff so I don't want to re-tune it right now)
    2014 F150 Limited -> Kenwood DDX-9907xr -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 mki in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, Rear SB17's, Sub SI BM MKV's in MTI BOX. Alpine PDX-F6 -> SI Tm65 mkIV, SI M3 mkI in Valicar Stuttgart Pods

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    A Refined Basshead blockrocker's Avatar
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    Re: Tune well and the SQ will come

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl View Post
    This is why everyone should have a friend like Justin Zazzi. What I have learned from him about tuning and audio in a very short time is astounding. We just got together for breakfast this morning and what I learned in a 5 minute conversation about tuning subs was awesome!

    I've learned a lot about phase, and it was actually a visual demo that explained so much. Something REW can do, but much more complicated.

    I am also going to hold him hostage until he helps me tune using much better software than REW (Smaart)....

    I seriously get done talking to him and know more, so go back and re-do the tune in my wife's SUV....(My truck needs some additional stuff so I don't want to re-tune it right now)
    That's awesome!! I actually use his house curve in my system. It sounds freaking great. I have to give a HUGE SHOUT OUT to dumdum. He was kind enough to chat with me today for over an hour and a half and I just sponged the knowledge from him. It was amazing. I spent the last 4 hours completely re-tuning with his advice. Holy shit, what an incredible difference. I mean its a mind-boggling difference, and I was pretty darn proud of the last one. Once he explained the relationships between phase and TA, plus reflections and cancellation, I could understand what I was seeing on the screen. I honestly feel ready to compete now, plus less concerned about changing my install around.

    THANKS AGAIN DUMDUM! You're a good man and I'm a fan for life!

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