Old but evergreen argument, class AB vs D!

[blockrocker]

I can't add to much to the psychological side of the debate, but I can assure you the C4 amplifiers sound absolutely fabulous. I recently got a demo of Audiogal's C1/C4 setup and it was awesome. Obviously, her very talented tuning abilities and attention to detail played a big factor in the sound, but those amps top notch. You will be very pleased.

I am personally unsure where I stand on the D vs AB debate. I've heard good and bad from both.

[KillerBox]

If the amps in the sound test has to be tuned to a 1/10 db level, then do the amps sound all that much different at all?

Are we just trying to squeeze the last .01% of performance out of them?

[geolemon]

I'm old. Just turned 46. So I'm old enough to know when there were zero Class D car audio amps. I'm old enough to remember the days when "$1/watt" was a "you better jump on that sale price!" super bargain.
And I'm old enough to remember when Class D came out - and in a lot of ways, dragged an already struggling Car Audio industry down further Why would customers buy a 300 watt class A/B sub amp when they could buy a 1000w class D sub amp for the same price?
I'm not saying the decline of the greats was totally due to "Class D", but it's not entirely coincidence either - Phoenix Gold (sold to a holding corporation), PPI (sold to a holding corporation), Orion (sold to a holding corporation), Eclipse (dead), and too many others to name. There was already the debate about sound quality theoretically decreasing from the digital nature of CD audio (pixellating the previously purely analog curves), and now there was pressure for everyone to cheapen their amplifier lines to compete with Class D amps. And back when they first come out, they WERE "subwoofer amp ONLY", because the switching nature of class D with zero overlap wasn't that great yet, it didn't produce a perfectly flat rail voltage, so they simply weren't full range amps.

I'm willing to give them a shot though. I've become wildly curious about these super compact form factor amps. I'm also wildly curious if class D truly has become as good as the Class A/B of old. Currently at the top of my short list are Rockford's 4 and 5 channel Power amps, though I haven't purchased yet... and I'm sitting on two DLS amps (EDIT: older, full-size - class A/B, not compact) that I could be using instead.

[TheTodd]

I'm old. Just turned 46. So I'm old enough to know when there were zero Class D car audio amps.

I'm also wildly curious if class D truly has become as good as the Class A/B of old.

I’m right there with ya. I’m getting ready to turn 47 so I also remember the days of A/B only. I believe that the is A/B better argument revolves around how good your hearing really is. I can say mine definitely isn’t what it used to be but I truly believe that the D amps are just as good. The comparison I’ll make is with probably my 2 best systems using A/B compared to my current dual 4-ch class D system. Keep in mind systems 1&2 were around the mid-late 90s.

System 1: Alpine 3-disc changer with Orion SX275 on Boston Acoustic 5 1/4 components and an Orion SX250 on a JL 10w1 in sealed box

System 2: Clarion Pro 7770 to Soundstream Ref 200 on MB Quart 6 1/2 comps and a Soundstream Ref 300 on a JL 12w4 in a sealed box

Current: Excelon DDX395 to Dayton DSP to 2 Soundstream Tarantula Nano 4 ch amps on PPI 3-way comps (OEM Chevy midbasses) & PPI Phantom 15” in IB

Being able to run 2 4ch amps rated at 115x4 (one is running 225w @ 2 ohms on midbasses + 450 to an IB 15) with only a single run of 4ga power/ground, no fans in a small space (and they barely get warm on a hot day & a 30min commute), and all for a whopping $250 from Amazon is a HUGE benefit for me. I think it sounds even better than my old school “reference” systems but one might say my progressing ability to tune PLUS the addition of a DSP plays a big factor in that. I can honestly say that power/size/cost wise I’ll probably never go back to A/B again.

[Cutaway]

I'm old. Just turned 46. So I'm old enough to know when there were zero Class D car audio amps. I'm old enough to remember the days when "$1/watt" was a "you better jump on that sale price!" super bargain.
And I'm old enough to remember when Class D came out - and in a lot of ways, dragged an already struggling Car Audio industry down further Why would customers buy a 300 watt class A/B sub amp when they could buy a 1000w class D sub amp for the same price?
I'm not saying the decline of the greats was totally due to "Class D", but it's not entirely coincidence either - Phoenix Gold (sold to a holding corporation), PPI (sold to a holding corporation), Orion (sold to a holding corporation), Eclipse (dead), and too many others to name. There was already the debate about sound quality theoretically decreasing from the digital nature of CD audio (pixellating the previously purely analog curves), and now there was pressure for everyone to cheapen their amplifier lines to compete with Class D amps. And back when they first come out, they WERE "subwoofer amp ONLY", because the switching nature of class D with zero overlap wasn't that great yet, it didn't produce a perfectly flat rail voltage, so they simply weren't full range amps.

Really crazy how our experiences are so similar including age....

Being able to run 2 4ch amps rated at 115x4 (one is running 225w @ 2 ohms on midbasses + 450 to an IB 15) with only a single run of 4ga power/ground, no fans in a small space (and they barely get warm on a hot day & a 30min commute), and all for a whopping $250 from Amazon is a HUGE benefit for me. I think it sounds even better than my old school “reference” systems but one might say my progressing ability to tune PLUS the addition of a DSP plays a big factor in that. I can honestly say that power/size/cost wise I’ll probably never go back to A/B again.

That impressed me to with my current set up but i dont like the sound i have. Yet instead of really researching everything (like finding this forum first) i just pulled the trigger on an impulse buy back into the A/B world when i could have spent a little less on really good class D equipment (same manufacturer)...
But overall i am just happy to have moved beyond my stock system and that is a W

[JCsAudio]

If the amps in the sound test has to be tuned to a 1/10 db level, then do the amps sound all that much different at all?

Are we just trying to squeeze the last .01% of performance out of them?

There are other things that affect perceived sound qaulity like phase shift and amplifier input impedance which affects the area midrange. No not all amplifiers sound the same but I think with most good designs from budget to top of the line the differences are still small.

Currently at the top of my short list are Rockford's 4 and 5 channel Power amps, though I haven't purchased yet... and I'm sitting on two DLS amps that I could be using instead.

Now I’m going to contradict what I just said and say those DLS amplifiers, if like mine, will be tough to beat. DLS makes some really good.....like magically good, sounding class AB amplifiers. I had a Rockford Fosgate Ti600 that I pitted up against my DLS cci44 in a blind test and it was very close, but the Rockford Fosgate was also class AB.

[geolemon]

Now I’m going to contradict what I just said and say those DLS amplifiers, if like mine, will be tough to beat. DLS makes some really good.....like magically good, sounding class AB amplifiers. I had a Rockford Fosgate Ti600 that I pitted up against my DLS cci44 and it was very close but the Rockford Fosgate was also class AB.

Well I have no complaints about my DLS amps, for sure. I have 3 channels of fantastic DLS power.

But - new car, new install, new thoughts on install layout. They are good sized amps.

Also I'd like to play with a DSP and going all active. I want to use my four door locations for midbass, so I want it time aligned. I'm going to start two-way, but have some great 2" full range drivers to turn that into three-way. I may also want to experiment with an L-R rear fill, to work around the issues I've always eliminated rear fill for.

And, I'm simply intrigued by the mini form factor. 9 channels of power with those DLS amps would have been three big chassis at least.
Or, today, I can get that - with ample power - in a 12"x8" footprint with two RF power amps.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

[blockrocker]

I'm old. Just turned 46. So I'm old enough to know when there were zero Class D car audio amps. I'm old enough to remember the days when "$1/watt" was a "you better jump on that sale price!" super bargain.
And I'm old enough to remember when Class D came out - and in a lot of ways, dragged an already struggling Car Audio industry down further Why would customers buy a 300 watt class A/B sub amp when they could buy a 1000w class D sub amp for the same price?
I'm not saying the decline of the greats was totally due to "Class D", but it's not entirely coincidence either - Phoenix Gold (sold to a holding corporation), PPI (sold to a holding corporation), Orion (sold to a holding corporation), Eclipse (dead), and too many others to name. There was already the debate about sound quality theoretically decreasing from the digital nature of CD audio (pixellating the previously purely analog curves), and now there was pressure for everyone to cheapen their amplifier lines to compete with Class D amps. And back when they first come out, they WERE "subwoofer amp ONLY", because the switching nature of class D with zero overlap wasn't that great yet, it didn't produce a perfectly flat rail voltage, so they simply weren't full range amps.

I'm willing to give them a shot though. I've become wildly curious about these super compact form factor amps. I'm also wildly curious if class D truly has become as good as the Class A/B of old. Currently at the top of my short list are Rockford's 4 and 5 channel Power amps, though I haven't purchased yet... and I'm sitting on two DLS amps that I could be using instead.

This is a very interesting point of view. I had never even considered how class d amps changed the landscape of the industry. When I was young and dumb, I simply bought what I could afford, often without even realizing what I was actually buying. Just a typical teenager looking to get loud. I appreciate your input as it some history on a subject I love and definitely food for thought.

[JimmyDee]

Here's my experience:

I went from a Zapco Z150.6-LX to a MMATS HiFi-6150.
I would consider both amps to be 'premium' in their class.

The Zapco Z-LX Series (since replaced with the Z-AP Series) is, in my opinion; the absolute best 'bang for the buck' premium Type A/B amplifier.
There's no fucking around with it... no crossovers, no nothing. Just pure clean power. And PLENTY of it.
I really have nothing bad to say about the sound quality of this amp... my only beef is that it's huge, and it gets quite hot.

The MMATS HiFi-6150 is as good as it gets, for a Class D amplifier.
It has a relatively small footprint. Produces massive amounts of power. And barely even gets warm (even when driving a sub).
From a sound quality perspective; I would say that it sounds identical to my Zapco. It's not better, it's definitely not worse.

I can't see myself ever going back to Class A/B again... unless I win the lottery, and build my dream Brax System.
Class D has come a long way, and a high-end Class D will sound just as good as a high-end A/B.

...and, now here I am. Back with Class A/B amps.

But I will still concede that a good Class D can sound every bit as good as an A/B

[dcfis]

Everyone knew you would