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Thread: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

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    My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Posting this from another forum where I started this for any CAJ members who might benefit.

    This has been posted many times and debated to death here. Is there a sound quality difference between amplifiers given that they are of good quality and at a reasonable price point? I was of the camp that believed that in a blind test no one could tell a difference so long as gains where set exactly equal and power range was within the amplifiers specified range (no clipping or under clipping).


    So the Amplifier shootout by Matt Hall gave me the idea to try and test this theory for myself as best I could in my garage with a blind listening test using my ears and my wife’s ears to be the judge, and by my modest means. My wife who is very much into music can recall any lyric to any song you can think of without stopping to think about it. She has become accustomed to good sounding systems thanks to me. I would consider her ears the best trained I have and also her hearing is better than mine. I’ve outfitting all of her vehicles over the years with some pretty nice sounding systems, including the full active system in her Toyota Sienna now.

    The Test equipment consisted of some Kef C45 bookshelf speakers and a Parts Express Mean Well power supply to power the amplifiers at 14 volts. The benchmark amplifier I used to compare all my others in this test to is an Alpine 3548 2 channel 60 wpc Class AB amplifier made in Japan from the early 90’s, when Alpine made some top shelf awesome sounding stuff. I describe this amplifiers sound as dynamic, open, airy, and natural sounding, plus it’s the best one I have. Playing music through this amplifier makes the music come alive. I picked this amplifier up new back in the early nineties and it was one of the first amplifiers I owned.

    The test consisted of swapping the speaker leads at the speakers to the amplifiers with quick connect banana plugs so I could swap amplifiers in less than 30 seconds. I did this by hooking up both amplifier’s to the power supply and using a banana plug for the remote turn on wire to only power one amplifier at a time so I didn’t overwhelm the power supply. So I just had to swap the speaker banana plugs to the speakers, remote turn on banana plug to power up one amp at a time, and swap the input RCA to the amplifier for the input source. I used my IPod gen 7, and played some lossless files consisting of Imagine Dragons songs with a phono to RCA adapter to feed directly into the amplifier. I used my Unik microphone and REW to set the gains on the amplifiers by matching their db output exactly to within 1/10 of each other so having one play louder than the other wouldn’t skew the result’s.

    First test was against my Alpine MRP F240, which is a 4 channel 40 wpc amplifier. It served me well and I regarded it as a good sounding amplifier. This amplifier was recently swapped out for my Pioneer D8604 in my truck. The Alpine MRP F240 is a Chinese made Alpine and of class AB design. Let’s just say this one was the easiest to tell the difference. I was actually surprised that I could tell a difference at first. The 3548 by comparison sounded more open, had a wider stage, and more realistic sounding bass. Thinking it was because the MRP F240 has less power, I then bridged it for 100 wpc, and performed the test again and it didn’t seem to make a difference. Remember I set the gain to match the output of the 3548 so only dynamics should change.

    Second test was against an NVX MVPA4, which is a Chinese made micro class D amplifier that many people buy for motorcycles or for tight spaces. This amplifier originally served as the main amp for the front stage in my wife’s Sienna because I had to hide it under the dash, and space was extremely tight. It is rated at 50 wpc, although Sonic Electronix's likes to claim it makes way more power, but I do not believe it makes much more power than 50 wpc, and this is based on my experience with it compared to more powerful amplifiers. There was a noticeable difference in sound quality when I swapped this amplifier for a Pioneer D9500F in my wife’s Toyota Sienna, and I’m not sure why I noticed that then but not now. Initially I did the test on this one first and had a harder time telling a difference. I had to run a few more tests for myself, and eventually I noticed that the songs seemed a little more hard edged in the upper frequencies and that the detail from the Alpine seemed to be a little better in the upper high end frequencies. I ran a couple of blind listening tests with my wife and she easily picked out the Alpine 3548 as the better sounding amplifier. Now I owe Sonic and NVX an apology because I kind of bashed this amplifier as sounding much worse than it actually does. It sounds better than the Alpine MRP F240 (class AB) and so did better in this test than I thought it would.

    Third test was against my best class D I have, which is a pioneer PRSD4200 with ICE power design, for whatever that means. Holding this amplifier in my hands shows it’s made to a higher standard. The pots look and feel nice and the switches look and feel like they are of higher quality than typical for this class. When the amplifier turns on, it has a separate relay inside it that makes an audible click. This amplifier is kind of large and heavy too for a 75 wpc class D amplifier. Its specifications are some of the best I’ve seen for the price point and class D design. This amplifier was the one I swapped with that Alpine 3548 in my CX5 over three years ago, and I do not remember noticing a difference in SQ after the swap. The Pioneer is a 4 channel design rated for 75 wpc into 4 ohms and 150 wpc into 2 ohms, so this tells me it has a robust power supply. I did the first listening test and really could not tell a difference, but I also knew which one was playing so my thoughts were biased and I wanted it to win. When my wife did the test (not knowing which one was playing), she asked me to swap them back and forth one more time, but in the end she once again chose the Alpine 3548, stating that this test was the hardest for her to decipher. She said the crispness of the vocals was slightly better when listening to the Alpine 3548, but that this was the hardest for her to tell a difference. For me it’s not enough of a difference that I want to change my amplifiers for something better, but it’s an eye opening test that proves to me that there are small audible differences in sound between different amplifiers.

    Lastly I ran a few pink noise tests and sweeps using my microphone and REW to see if I could measure any differences between all amplifiers. The pink noise testing revealed no real differences nor did the sweeps except for maybe the NVX in a small area. I then just played Imagine Dragons Believer (lossless ripped from a CD) and measured the song in Rew up to 100 averages. This revealed some slight differences of 1 db or less in the upper ranges and I also graphically it looked like there were softer edges to the peaks and valleys in the graph for the Alpine 3548 vs the others. I need to re-measure these though just to make sure that what I’m looking at is accurate.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

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    Sienna
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    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Ran some more tests today with a DLS CCi44 amplifier. The less powerful CC44 brother to this amplifier was one of the top performing amplifiers in the high value shootout, so I grabbed one from ANS so I could test it for myself. I set up the test bench in the same manner as before, only this time I rigged everything so I could switch them back and forth even faster than before. I also summoned my 12 year old daughter along with my former judge, my wife, to be the judges in a blind A vs B test. My daughter may not have experienced ears but she has sensitive new ears that can hear things we older folk have lost. The DLS went up against my former champion, the Alpine 3448 from above in a blind A vs B test where the judges could ask me to switch them back and forth as many times as they needed. They also each went alone at first so that none could influence the others opinion and it was interesting that they both came up with basically the same conclusions and notes.

    Here are some of the notes my 12 year old daughter took for amplifier #1 DLS and Amplifier #2 Alpine:

    DLS, sound travels to my ears different. Echo and voice stronger than background music. Bass and voice sound good and firm. Voice and echo much stronger. Better vocals and stronger sound separation and can travel better. background music clear and more balanced sound.

    Alpine, Background music stronger. Echo and voice strong still. Echo is more pronounced. Bass is stronger and is stronger than background or voice.

    My wifes notes were:

    DLS, stronger vocals. sound separation better. Background more clear. More balanced sound.

    Alpine, More detail in vabrado of voice. Bass is stronger. Bass muddy's up the vocals. Vocals where not as strong or prominent as the DLS (amplifier #1).

    I was standing behind the speakers but I also noticed stronger bass from the Alpine but also the DLS seemed to have a smoother more balanced sound. I measured them with my microphone and pink noise in REW and the Alpine did show a stronger bass with the DLS having a stronger top end. I leveled match the gains using my microphone as best I could so they both played the same level at 500 Hz to within .1 db. I lost those screen shots because my computer crashed so I will try and remeasure them and post that here. When asked which amplifier they preferred they both said the DLS sounded better overall. Up until this point the Alpine has won in every blind test but this time it lost by a slim margin to both judges.

    Next up will be my Rockford Fosgate Power t600-4. I already had the RF hooked up and did some listening against the Alpine and DLS myself and its going to be close, but we shall see. Once that one is done, I will be testing my Pioneer D8604. It will be interesting to see how the Pioneer D8604 does because its a modern budget class D amplifier. I also have a Zapco ST 2xSQ on the way to go up against the Alpine 3548 and DLS.

    More to come so stay tuned!
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Ok, so I asked my 8 year old son to do the test. He stated the following about the differences between amplifiers when I asked him after listening to each amplifier about three times:

    Amplifier #1 (DLS) more high pitched and better bass. Bass is louder.

    Amplifier #2 Has a lower and higher pitch.

    When I asked him which one he thought sounded better he said amplifier #1 (DLS). Remember, he's only 8 but he is brutally honest and has no clue why I'm even doing this so his response I would say is even less biased.

    I then did the listening test myself to see if I could hear a difference and I really could not. I thought maybe the Alpine sounded a little less natural but I also knew which one was playing so the psychological factor may have been skewing my thoughts.

    I then measured the responses with my microphone and REW between the two and found that the DLS was playing 3/10's of a db louder so I have to throw all these results out and do the test all over again. I also see that they play exactly the same across the board from low to high whereas before I saw different responses in the lows and highs. This time though I measured the responses so that I was standing behind the speakers and completely still so that any reflected sounds would not skew the response. Last time I was standing next to the microphone and off to the side of the speakers so if I moved even a little I could have changed the reflected sounds and thus the response.

    The first graph is as they were tested and red is the DLS and green the Alpine. The second graph is after I re-adjusted the gain on the DLS down some so they are exactly matched now and blue is the DLS and green the Alpine. I will redo the test and post the results later.



    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Ok, I redid the tests again with the correctly level matched gains the same way as before with my wife first and then my daughter second. Amplifier #1 was the DLS and Amplifier #2 was the Alpine and they didn't know which one was which.

    My wife stated for amplifier #1 vocals sound clearer and sounds like vocals are more separate and distinguishable. Hits the vocals better.

    My wife said amplifier #2 Bass is stronger, vocals fine but feel like when all the instruments come in they are bumping into each other and there is less separation.

    Wife said #1 sounds better so DLS wins again.

    My daughter stated amplifier #1 sounded a lot like the person was in front of you and perfect amount of bass and background music and voice. Voices were very clear and could hear every little detail.

    My daughter stated amplifier #2 voices clear but sounded more staticy and wasnt as clear. There was less detail and not as balanced.

    Winner - DLS.

    So now I'd like to know if I should compare the RF to the Alpine or put it up against the DLS since the DLS clearly keeps winning the comparison?
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    I've had the Rockford Fosgate Power t600-4 set up for a few days now, just waiting for some judges to become available. I measured the response in REW to verify a few things such as playing on an even level and noticed that the Rockford Fosgate has a different response compared to all the rest. It measures with a higher level in the treble and bass octaves but is matched in the middle octaves. I measured it several times just to verify and it measures the same every time. This is what I was seeing when I measured the RF against the DLS, and the Alpine before I lost those graphs due to my computer crashing.

    I’ve been doing my own listening sessions against these two and I think the DLS sounds better still but my listening impressions are not reliable because I know which amplifier is playing so I’m curious what the blind test will come up with. I will start with the RF in the test just to switch things up but again the judges do not know what is play or even which two amplifiers are playing. The RF is shown in red.

    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Did an initial blind test with my wife and she closed her eyes while listening. I played the song Natural by Imagine Dragons and she said to me "I cant tell which one is the Alpine". I asked her to tell me just which one she thought sounded better and why and she said "I cannot tell right now". "I will have to try again later". I started out with the Rockford Fosgate t600-4 and then the DLS. I also pulled the Pioneer D8604 from my truck and have a new Zapco ST SQ standing by as well for the next few tests.

    So far the RF seems to be closer than I initially thought even though it measures the most different in the RTA. More testing to come tomorrow.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Ok, ran the test with the Rockford Fosgate against the DLS CCi-44. First of all the RF has almost twice the real RMS power as compared to the DLS so please keep this in mind when you read the notes presented by my wife, daughter, and son. I think my daughter may have been picking up on this in terms of headroom with the Rockford Fosgate, maybe.

    In this test the RF was amplifier #1 and the DLS amplifier #2 and I started out the test with Amplifier #1 for all the judges. All of the judges had a harder time this time deciphering which amplifier was the better sounding amplifier and all of them had to switch back and forth more often this time compared to the other tests. These amplifiers are very close in sound.

    Yesterday I tried the test with my wife but she gave up after the first audition and said I can’t really tell right now. She was also tired so her patience wasn’t all there either. I tried the test myself and also had a hard time telling but thought the DLS was just a tad smoother and more realistic but my thoughts were also clouded by the fact that I knew which amplifier was playing so my thoughts are not reliable. Also keep in mind this is a blind comparison test so when one judge says one is not as clear as the other, it’s in reference to the other in that test only. Just because they say it’s not clear doesn’t mean it’s not actually clear but that there is a perceived difference in reference to the other in that test.

    Amplifier #1 is the Rockford Fosgate t600-4 rated 4x100 wpc but often puts out 50% more.
    Amplifier #2 is the DLS CCi-44 rated 4x85 wpc and likely does about rated.

    Wife’s notes/comments:

    Amplifier #1 “vocals not as crisp or clear. Bass seems stronger. Volume in vocals seemed louder but not as clear. When everything in the song came in the song it was as if it was an assault of sound but I didn’t get that feeling with amplifier #2”.

    Amplifier #2 “I think it has better individual sound quality to it and better separation of sound. It has an overall more balanced sound. The difference is noticeable but small and hard to tell at first.
    I asked her which one she preferred and she said amplifier#2.

    Daughter’s notes/comments:

    Amplifier #1, “at first both sounded the same. After listening more I think amplifier #1 is clearer when the singer started yelling in the song. The vocals were clearer and they have better balance overall”.

    Amplifier #2 “It sounds less clear when the singer started yelling in the song compared to #1. I don’t think it’s as balanced as #1”.
    I asked her which one she preferred and she said amplifier#1

    Son’s Comments:

    Amplifier #1 “It has more static in the sound but I think it has better overall sound. It sounds better with the background parts of the music when all playing at once”.

    Amplifier #2 “It has less background sound but both are really close but it’s hard to tell”.
    I asked him which one he preferred and he said amplifier#1

    So there you have it. The DLS wasn’t a clear winner this time. The Rockford has an advantage in the treble and bass as measured with the microphone which might be perceived as better by younger people compared to my wife’s more experienced ears. My wife still prefers the natural sound of the DLS. One thing is for sure is that these are so close that there isn’t really a clear winner here. I’m going to call this one a tie for now.

    Next up, the DLS is going up against the Pioneer D8604. This is going to be interesting. Will it do as well as my older designed ICE Power Class D Pioneer PRS D4200F or better? Will this budget class D do well against a good class A/B design? Stay tuned to find out.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Got the Pioneer D8604 hooked up and level matched to the DLS. Looking at the REW measurements they track slightly different but closer than the Rockford Fosgate did to the DLS. DLS is green and Pioneer is blue.

    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Just realized that there isn't enough contrast between green and blue so I changed the colors.

    DLS is blue and Pioneer D8604 is purple.

    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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    Re: My own Amplifier Sound Quality Shootout

    Ok, finally got my wife, daughter, and son to be the judges in the next test with the Pioneer D8604 and wrote down their comments after each listening test. I also asked them each the same question after they gave me their comments and that question was: Do you think #1 sounds better, #2 sounds better, or do you think it is a tie?

    Amplifier #1 was the Pioneer D8604
    Amplifier #2 was the DLC CCi-44.


    Son
    #1 has more bass than #2. #2 is more high pitched.
    Answer to question: Think it’s a tie.

    Wife
    #1 It’s very close! I like #1 but I can’t explain why. More bass but I do not always like that.
    #2 ending vocals seemed to not be as clear in song.

    Answer to question: I Likes both. They are very close. I say it’s a tie. #1 when everything is playing at once in certain things but sound can be overpowering at times. Vocals in the beginning are very clear with a quality sound to #1. With #2 there is slightly less depth to the vocals. #1 has a very clear sound when just the vocals are playing.

    Daughter
    #1 sounded same/similar as #2 in last round (DLS was #2 in last round). Voice sounds like he is singing through a digital device and not direct to me.
    #2 Prefer echoing in the background and voice in #2. His voice sounds like it’s in front of me and the echo is around me. Sounds like he is singing into a good microphone. Has good sound.

    Question: close to being a tie but #2 slight advantage but also like #1.

    Looks like the Pioneer did better than everyone might have expected. Don't pay attention to my daughters comment about the digital sound as she has no clue about that stuff and she thought the Pioneer was the DLS in this round. I had to play each amplifier twice for each judge and could tell they were having a hard time making out any differences. The Pioneer D8604 is also the second most powerful amplifier in this test only to the Rockford Fosgate t600-4 so I’m starting to think that the amount of power and therefore headroom is having an effect on the dynamics of the song. The most powerful amplifiers are also the top three winners so far. I think I'll be putting the D8604 back into my truck as I've said before I like this amplifier very much. I think Pioneer's engineers did a good job designing this Class FD (class D) amplifier. I'm also convinced that class D is just as good as Class A/B for reproducing quality sound but with less heat and in a smaller footprint. The DLS heats up some during the twenty minutes or so of testing whereas the class D amplifiers do not even get warm.
    Mazda CX5 AF GB10, AF GB25, AF GB60, JL VX800/8i, AF GB12 sealed, Mmats M1400.1

    Ford F150
    AF GB10, AF GB25, JLC5, JL twk88/Pioneer D8604, Mosconi Pico, JBL Club 5501, Sundown SD3-10 ported @ 30 Hz

    Sienna
    AF GB15, Audiofrog GS690, JL twk88/Pioneer D9500F, JBL GTX500, Alpine SWS10 ported @ 31 Hz

    https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa.../#post-5608901






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