Helix DSP.3 help thread

[SkizeR]

WOW - awesome info! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply like that. Keep in mind that I don't have my Helix DSP.3 installed yet - I'm just showing what I have currently on my Rockford Fosgate DSR-1. The DSR-1 only supports LR crossovers (all slopes), so I can't experiment with other types or even perform any channel-link-based channel-link-based EQ'ing yet.

The graphs I posted above were *after* I had already level-matched the left/right drivers (had to lower drivers side by 2dB on the dash speakers - left door speakers as-is as it seemed to match the best overall because of that 250hz peak).

It sounds like I've been putting way too much time and effort into getting my graphs to look good at 1/6th and even 1/12th smoothing levels - using 1dB flatness targets. I would look at the measurements in 1/6th or 1/12th smoothing and my OCD would make me want to "fix" anything that deviated from my target curve by more than 1dB or so - it sounds like that level of detail is completely unnecessary and most likely not even audible - a complete waste of time and EQ bands.

I do have a few follow-up questions for you though...

Yeah, probably a waste of time, and definitely of recources to be honest

1. Crossovers. I always went to great lengths to use the same type of crossover and the same slope on each side of the car - as well as the same exact electrical crossover point - thinking that was the best to avoid phase-related issues. Above in #1, you mention using a completely different type and slope of a crossover on one side - and setting the electrical crossover to completely different frequencies just to get the left/right midbass responses to match better before any EQ'ing. Honestly, I would have never even thought to try that (even if I could select different crossover types on the DSR-1)! :-) Makes sense though in order to reduce the number of EQ bands needed. So none of those differences really matter in terms of phase, etc - as long as the acoustical crossover ends up at the same place?

the numbers inside of the dsp dont matter (so long as youre not playing drivers low enough to blow them). At the end of the day, eq, crossovers, levels, shelf filters, etc... are all the same thing: Filters. Think of it like this.. 1+1+2+6= 10. But 5+5 also equals 10. see where im going with this? As long as it gets you to a target, you can use whatever you need to shape the response. Phase does adjust with crossovers, eq, etc.. But, we're not concerned with what the graph in the dsp software shows.. were concerned with what the graph on the rta shows. An acoustic response has a given phase response, so fixing the frequency response fixes your phase (this is generalized, but for the most part true).

2. When you talk about 1/2 and 1/3 measurements, what RTA setting are you using while actually taking the measurements? I usually use "RTA 1/6 octave" setting in the RTA while actually taking the measurements. I think I've seen you using the "Spectrum" mode during measurements. Do you recommend using "Spectrum" during the measurements (and then using the 1/2 or 1/3 smoothing as needed during the EQ work)? Also - any preference for "Max Overlap" or "Window" type (I've seen some use Hann instead of Rectangular) - wasn't sure if any of those really affected the measurements much or not...

i use 1/48th with "no bars" in REW's RTA, then save them to the main menu to where i can smooth them to whatever i want and always revert if needed. Do NOT use spectrum mode. In my video i think i said not to use spectrum. Spectrum is not the same as rta. If you go to my auto eq video on youtube, i think i go over what settings i use there.

3. Lastly, I have this huge dip at ~700hz on my 6x9 door midbass speakers that drives me crazy. I would actually like to do my crossovers at 700hz or 800hz, but that huge dip really screws that up. How would you handle this? This image is the 6x9 door midbass speakers with no crossovers or EQ. See that huge dip at 700hz (guess it's my center console causing that maybe?). Had a same exact dip, but at around 600hz with the previous 6x9 speakers I had in there, so it doesn't seem to be the speakers themselves. Or maybe it's the lack of sound deadening in the doors (have to get a power window issue addressed under warranty before I do that).

This is something that will separate someone who understands audio and tuning, and someone who knows how to follow an auto eq procedure. maybe use that dip as part of your crossover and knock down the upper end a bit with eq to match a 500hz crossover? who knows. It really depends how that dip behaves. My questions to you is why do you want your crossover at 700 or 800hz? what coaxial are you using that needs to be crossed that high?

[jtrosky]

This is something that will separate someone who understands audio and tuning, and someone who knows how to follow an auto eq procedure. maybe use that dip as part of your crossover and knock down the upper end a bit with eq to match a 500hz crossover? who knows. It really depends how that dip behaves. My questions to you is why do you want your crossover at 700 or 800hz? what coaxial are you using that needs to be crossed that high?

That dip does respond to EQ (I even have to give it a substantial amount of boost just to use a 500hz crossover). But the dip would require a ton of boost (12db+) to be able to boost it up to the rest of the frequencies if I wanted to use 700hz or 800hz xover. The reason that I wanted to try 700 or 800hz crossover is because the Kenwood component set actually comes with passive crossovers that use an 850hz crossover point. The 3.5" speaker in the set (which is also sold on it's own) actually has the frequency response listed as 800hz-23khz. So I just wanted to try it at a higher crossover to see the results - but that dip really screws me up if I try to use anything over 500hz for the crossover point.

It may be that they use a 850hz passive crossover simply because it's a 6dB passive crossover and that is that is how they keep it from playing too low. Maybe I'm better off with 500hz crossover point when using 24dB slopes. I would just like to try and "blend" the dash and door speakers a little better. Maybe I can try 12dB slopes instead at 500hz? The dash speakers sometimes just seem to dominate the sound a little too much - even though they don't measure as being "dominant". Could also just be what I'm used to from other "lesser" systems too, where too much sound came from the doors... All goes back to not ever hearing a really "good" system to compare it to, I guess.

Anyway, I'll have to experiment a little more and see what happens.

Thanks again for all of the input and tips - much appreciated!

[Jdunk54nl]

What does Kenwood use for the crossover point on the 6x9? Is it 850 too?

[jtrosky]

What does Kenwood use for the crossover point on the 6x9? Is it 850 too?

Well, I assume... Kenwood is VERY light in the specs department on these speakers... The component set comes with a 6x9 midbass speaker that has a built-in low-pass filter (assuming it's 850hz based on the footnote shown below) as well as little in-line high-pass filters for the wire that runs between the 6x9 and the 3.5" coaxials if running passive. Since I'm running active, I don't use the in-line high-pass filters at all (each speaker is wired directly to the amp) - and the woofer also has a separate positive terminal if you want to run active and ignore the built-in low-pass filter.

So if I were running passive, it would be an 850hz low-pass on the 6x9 and a 850hz high-pass on the 3.5" coaxials.

I even called them to see how low I can run the 3.5" speaker in an active config since they don't even list a FR for the 3.5" in the component set (but the same 3.5" speaker can be purchased separately and has a listed FR of 800hz-23khz). They told me they don't have that information available. :-) They have detailed specs for the 6x9 midbass (all kinds of specs - see below), but *nothing* listed for the 3.5".

Here are the specs for the 6x9:


But this is literally all they say about the crossover - in a little footnote at the bottom of the page:

[jtrosky]

By the way, I'm kind of curious what all of those 6x9 midbass speaker specs tells those that can understand them. :-) Do they indicate anything "good" or "bad" about the 6x9 midbass speaker?

I understand impedance, frequency response, sensitivity and wattage ratings - other than that, I'm still clueless on all of those other specs and what they tell me. I've actually come a LONG way over the past 6 or 8 months, but obviously still have a LONG way to go. :-)

[Jdunk54nl]

I think you are getting hung up on the factory specs of the speakers. Both the 2 3/4" and your 3 1/2" list almost identical specs. I think these speakers were designed to just be replacement speakers with most just doing that and being done. Most aren't probably adding an amp, adding a dsp, tuning, etc.

Like SkizeR said, I don't know of very many 3 1/2" speakers that can't be crossed lower.....
Here are a bunch of 3 1/2" and I only looked at a few, but all could be crossed lower
https://www.parts-express.com/cat/mi...%5D&PortalID=1

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...x-3-fullrange/


Ultimately though, you have two options.
1) Cross lower than the dip (my choice)
2) Match the left and right 6x9 together at the dip and cross higher.

Decide which one you want to do, and go with it. Or try both and see what sounds better. I try to get as much of the frequency up away from the door mounted speakers as possible. Too many install issues that are hard to fix with door installs (center console affecting it, factory speaker grills, armrest, etc.)

[jtrosky]

I just thought it was very strange how they listed the FR as 800hz-23khz for the 3.5" when, like you've noticed, every other 3.5" coaxial speaker in that price range has the FR listed down to 80hz or 120hz, etc - especially since they also used 850hz as the crossover freq for the component set (so there were two different things pointing to that 850hz crossover point). Was just thinking that maybe there was some reason why they are using that high of a crossover freq. The 800hz spec is just so different compared to other similar speakers that it caught my attention, that's all.

I know that it's just a spec on a piece of paper though. The measured response from the speakers does looks fine below 800hz, so...

The reason I was curious about maybe using a higher crossover point was because the dash speakers just seem so much more prominent than I'm used to - even though they look normal in measurements level-wise. Thought maybe I could get them to "mesh" with the door speakers better if I crossed higher - but that dip really gets in the way. :-) I think I'll try 12dB slopes on the door and dash speakers (with the same 500hz crossover) and see if that gets them to mesh better. Was avoiding that because I always hear that 24dB slopes are the "correct" slope to use when going active.

Just trying to learn and understand some of this stuff a little better...

Thanks for the help!

One of the problems with the DSR-1 is that profile changes take a significant amount of time, so its really hard to get true A/B comparisons when you make changes. Looking forward to the Helix DSP.3! :-)

[SkizeR]

That dip does respond to EQ (I even have to give it a substantial amount of boost just to use a 500hz crossover). But the dip would require a ton of boost (12db+) to be able to boost it up to the rest of the frequencies if I wanted to use 700hz or 800hz xover. The reason that I wanted to try 700 or 800hz crossover is because the Kenwood component set actually comes with passive crossovers that use an 850hz crossover point. The 3.5" speaker in the set (which is also sold on it's own) actually has the frequency response listed as 800hz-23khz. So I just wanted to try it at a higher crossover to see the results - but that dip really screws me up if I try to use anything over 500hz for the crossover point.

It may be that they use a 850hz passive crossover simply because it's a 6dB passive crossover and that is that is how they keep it from playing too low. Maybe I'm better off with 500hz crossover point when using 24dB slopes. I would just like to try and "blend" the dash and door speakers a little better. Maybe I can try 12dB slopes instead at 500hz? The dash speakers sometimes just seem to dominate the sound a little too much - even though they don't measure as being "dominant". Could also just be what I'm used to from other "lesser" systems too, where too much sound came from the doors... All goes back to not ever hearing a really "good" system to compare it to, I guess.

Anyway, I'll have to experiment a little more and see what happens.

Thanks again for all of the input and tips - much appreciated!

Stick with 500 @ 24 db. The reason they stick out and seem to dominate might be because they're, you know.. kenwood coaxials. (Distortion)

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[jtrosky]

I really don't think it's the speakers. When I stay "stick out", I mean at all volumes, not just really loud where distortion could come into play. It's hard to explain to without hearing it yourself.

I actually really like these Kenwood Excelon speakers. I just can't convince myself that I need $600 speakers for my setup and my goals. I've actually heard good things about these speakers from multiple people now that are far more experienced in audio than I.

Interestingly, the stock dash speakers were wired in reverse polarity from the factory ("Premium Alpine" system), which definitely makes the dash speakers less "prominent", but I think it hurts more than helps overall.

I guess it could be a reflection-related thing that I need to get tuned just right, too - or the DSR-1 could be impacting things in a bad way (lots of people say it's quality level is sub-par) - or, like I said, it may also just be that I'm so used to even "lesser" systems like my old car, where there is a 6.5" coaxial in the door, 6x9 coaxial in the rear deck and a 1" tweeter in the a-pillar - and the 6.5" coaxial and 6x9 coaxial are both playing full range audio at full volume. :-) All powered with a 45Wx4 $150 redbrick amp. Compared to that setup, I guess the dash speakers in my current setup *would* sound more prominent since the other speakers are playing so much less audio compared to my previous setup. Crossover? I didn't need no stinkin' crossovers!! ;-)

While my current setup may be "bargain basement" to most on these forums, it's actually a big step up for me, so it's possible that I'm still just learning what "good" audio really is. But I really don't think the speakers are the problem. At this point, I'm so new to all of this that I'm just experimenting and trying different things - all part of the learning process. :-)

Looking forward to being able to do better A/B comparisons of changes when I get the Helix installed - as well as seeing what difference the Helix alone makes. Someone else that went from a DSR-1 to a Helix said that just the switch of DSP's made a big difference. The DSR-1 can be "quirky" and it's output change from one day to the next. :-)

[Jdunk54nl]

Are you saying you are hearing more sound coming from the dash area than the door....that is how SQ should be. Your speakers should blend together and be at about ear level and ~center of dash. More sound should seem to be coming from up on the dash if you have them blended together.