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Werewolf,
Proved to himself (heard it) that an attenuated, bandpassed signal devoid of common or identical sounds (replicated from both) speakers. Left minus right, thereby adding to the rear fill only what was being heard that was reproduced uncommonly.
You need a job writing Chinese operating manuals
I love kung pao dolphin bites, and thanks!
I can tell you from my ecperience, that a center channel speaker playing full range loudly in the back, didn`t make my "Avalanche" sound any better.
How do you suggest we add background noise to a musical recording to give the impression that it was recorded live?
Sting Live in Berlin is excellently recorded!
Can`t help you there , sorry.
Just do without , same as it ever was
Actually, give me a couple and I`ll see what I can come up with.
Right now I`m listening to The Archies on a 45 played @ 33 1/3 singing Sugar. Sounds like Chewbacca on quaaludes.
Currently writing "trouble shooting" sections for things that go bang! (dynamite/guns/etc..,)Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl205
L-R rearfill is beneficial in a case by case basis. If you have a large sedan or suv it can really help give you a sense of space. If you can tell it's playing behind you it's too effing loud! You need a ton of delay to pull this off too. It's one of those things that can also royally screw things up for you if not done correctly. In my Grand Cherokee it worked great. Haven't tried it in my single cab Ram but after discussing it with someone I would consider very knowledgeable on this topic we decided it wasn't worth the time or money. Most if not all of the people who think running rears is bad just haven't heard them used correctly whether it be somewhat fullrange or L-R. Again, this is a case by case basis.
Hillbilly SQ,
Might try talking to Mr Marv ? {very "experienced"} !
Do you have any experience with Richard Clark and David Navone (interlink MicroXLN) ? Monster Car Audio, multiple gauge high and low frequency wire networks?
Discerning listeners enjoy them !
. . . And, by-the-way. . . (Werewolf/Lycan or jusst any a$$hole or Marv didn`t talk with you. ) who did you talk to ? The knowledgeable one ?
Ha - Ha . . . LOL !
Pretty sure . . . Hasselhoff linx wit Riley, to precede the Ruby Red fill hood then you shake-it-all-about. . . Click-clack you don`t go back?
Does time-delay work best in limos or busses?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly SQ
The person I consulted with about l-r rearfill demonstrated it to me (as well as several others) in his car several years ago by letting us hear with, without, and just how little sound the rears were actually making to make such a huge difference. Not sure if he wants his name thrown around but he knows who he is and was a ton of help. There's no magic to it. It's all about tricking the brain to make the stage seem deeper and/or wider than it really is. And it will wreck the staging just as fast as it will help it. It's a delicate balance that can drive you crazy getting "just right". You simply configure the rear speakers to cancel out mono info and only play left and right cues whether it be in the processor or by twisting the negative speaker wires together and putting each positive into the amp. From what I understand how deep the "room" is has to do with how much delay you add to simulate the left and right cues bouncing off the back wall of the "room". And like with real estate speaker placement is all about location to get the desired effect. Rear deck of a sedan works well. Off axis adds width while on axis adds depth. I think that's right but if not I encourage the ones who know more than I do about this subject to correct me so others will be able to learn.
I was wondering , what size tires ? I want to raise the soundstage in a vette (how high will the stage rise, when I donk the vette? )
Y`all might have lost sumptin in translation, what`d it cost for each of this group? Fifty? - Two hundred?
Is this `worth` doing? Are echoes... echoes... or bandpassing the issue? Several years seem like more time, too much time ?
If you don`t think it`s "all that, or it`s too hard to wire up !
l-r rearfill is something you'll only benefit from if you do it correctly. Yes it's worth trying IF AND ONLY IF you have the right tools and knowledge to do it correctly. You need to make sure the rears are free of any big peaks. You need to be able to be able to delay them 20-25ms in relation to the fronts. If you don't have the tools to do it correctly then don't bother. Big thing is having enough time delay. When I was planning my build I decided that it wasn't worth it for my system goals. And it's been said that not every type of car/truck will take well to l-r rearfill. My Grand Cherokee was a perfect candidate for it and did quite will with it. We decided it wasn't worth the trouble in my single cab Ram.
If you want more delay [ loop a channel , is what Marv mentions ]. Time-alignment works if you use it ... period ! [QUOTE]My Grand Cherokee was a perfect candidate for it and did quite will with it. We decided it wasn't worth the trouble in my single cab Ram./QUOTE]
If talkin shit becomes an Olympic Sport [ I have sent you my name and number and will back you myself or find other people with liked minded goals ! bronze or Silver ain't an option for you . ]
[QUOTE]When I was planning my build I decided that it wasn't worth it for my system goals. [/QUOTE] Are goals a system that is less than it could be ... boring/conventional ?
You Go Hillbilly SQ - prolly about da sound , hmm ?
[QUOTE=Hic;44966]If you want more delay [ loop a channel , is what Marv mentions ]. Time-alignment works if you use it ... period ! [QUOTE]My Grand Cherokee was a perfect candidate for it and did quite will with it. We decided it wasn't worth the trouble in my single cab Ram./QUOTE]
If talkin shit becomes an Olympic Sport [ I have sent you my name and number and will back you myself or find other people with liked minded goals ! bronze or Silver ain't an option for you . ]
Just curious, are you the owner of my truck?Quote:
When I was planning my build I decided that it wasn't worth it for my system goals. [/QUOTE] Are goals a system that is less than it could be ... boring/conventional ?
You Go Hillbilly SQ - prolly about da sound , hmm ?
I need to change the title of this thread to "Improving grammar"
:LOL:
Y u no use da reerphil?
It's pronounced "rear amberlamps"
For attenuating in pickups {just mount rear speakers on outside of rear window! } . It`ll delay the sound (physically block the arrival time). As for Cherookee only DSP. . . Buy a... Cherokee (ta-da) !
I can`t afford flying carpets, unicorns or truck you own.
If you say it cannot be done ! I`m GOOD
Quote:
Just curious, are you the owner of my truck?
Not insinuating in any way that I know more than anyone else on the subject by answering here as this is definitely not something I came up with on my own nor that I fully understand rather I t's something I do using instructions from someone far more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. I understand the goals of doing this (mimicking room reflections to create a greater sense of space without screwing everything else up as you mentioned) and know it works based on my experience however I can't totally grasp the scientific part of how manipulating the inputs on the dsp removes the common info or how our brains get tricked by the delay. I'm also not sure how important the bandpassed frequencies are as I have read numerous opinions on that nor how much difference speaker location makes (I recall werewolf stating 100hz-7khz with speakers above and to the outside of your ears has to do with one of those scientific hearing things the engineers of the original Dolby came up with) however a few things I do know based on my experience are it is not that difficult imo if you have the correct tools as you mention, most everyone speaking on the subject seem to agree the amount of delay changes the effect with a good 20+ milliseconds needed to get the "full effect" and playing the rears too loud or playing higher frequencies from behind you screws everything up which is also what I have found through my experimenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly SQ
Hillbilly SQ, don`t waste your time competing. Send me a thousand dollars and I will mail you a blue ribbon or just go to a competition where no one else shows up to compete and you`ll get 1rst place !
You talk a lot of smack for somebody who's never posted a build log, or any other sign that you've ever actually owned a car audio system...trust me, I've looked. All you've ever done is try to stir up the hornet's nest, and if you can get other people arguing, you just sit back and touch yourself while watching the sparks fly. So instead of drafting off other peoples' work, how about posting some of your own...or...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hic
:gtfo2:
I had best luck with 350-3500ish when I ran it in the GC. Other vehicles will react differently. I just know that it wasn't part of my original install plans for this truck. Still might try it the way you mention in the other thread. That's a few years off though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Marv
Al, enjoy that eighteen. Anyone who has children, knows from time-to-time they are gonna tell a whopper !
Then someone will tell little guy he ain`t fooling nobody and shame on him.
Your (false/surrogate) lil billy has now learned that telling lies can upset the big guy!
So, chill :!:
:wat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl205
The whole stream of consciousness shit has me lost. This shit certainly ain't worth the effort to try to decipher...
Is this the twilight zone? Strange happenings up in here.
Thanks for cleaning up hic's mess Al. Maybe we can get this back to a civilized adult discussion about l-r rearfill.
The biggest piece of advice I have for anyone wanting to try it is if you don't have the right tools to do it then don't bother because you probably won't like the results. If you want to put the effort into doing it correctly with the right processor then it's worth a try just to say you did it. If you can hear them playing with the fronts playing the rears are too loud. Each vehicle will want a different bandpass on the rears and the lower the lowpass the further back the "room" will seem to be in my experience. This is why I preferred 3500hz over say 5000hz. I'm a little rusty on the topic because I haven't messed with l-r rearfill in a while. As it sits I'd have to put the mids in pods back there because the factory locations are pretty low. My sub box is completely blocking the passenger side rear speaker and no plans to change the configuration of the install. I guess me saying I wasn't going to do it sent hic into a tailspin but the experience I got with it in the Grand Cherokee was priceless. I really do think it helped A LOT with the staging considering I had a 2-way front in it. I have a 3-way front in the Ram and stage is already plenty high and deep.
:deadhorse:
If it is that tough to get it right, does it then screw everything up if you listen to poorly recorded music? Is it something you need to tweak for each song, or is it “when you get it dialed in, it helps every song no matter what?”Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly SQ
As noted there are always several ways to skin a cat and I have always found experimenting with "some guidance from those in the know" is key to finding what works best "for you". What I consider "well recorded" music already has a "sense of space" built into the recording and does not seem to be affected too much but you still hear it a bit. Also, you will hear a "difference" on any song however one thing for sure is it's not gonna miraculously make total crap recordings/radio sound great. Where I have found the most benefit is in "decent" recordings that don't necessarily have that "sense of space built in i.e. I have tracks that image pretty well but my stage will not be as wide or deep as "well recorded" tracks. My recommendation would be to set up your front stage the best you can and get some Sheffield Labs/Chesky etc recordings. They may not be the type of music you listen to or like but you'll quickly find what "well recorded" music does for your stage. Rear fill set up properly should mimic that kind of stage and sense of space with "decent recordings" imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by beak81champ
To be honest it was hit and miss for me depending on the recording. Me and Erin had this discussion and I believe this is why he decided not to run it anymore. L-R rearfill is a neat effect but it can hurt as much as it helps and I was noticing this too. I've never run it the way Marv is in his truck with left playing left and right playing right. L-R is mono ambience by nature with the l/r cues in mono and the mono info cancelled out...I think. I have heard a few cars that were running it the way Marv is in his truck and I don't know how much it actually helped but the owner said it was beneficial. I never noticed there was anything playing from behind me so they obviously didn't have the rears too hot.Quote:
Originally Posted by beak81champ