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7 Attachment(s)
Under appreciated Subwoofers
During this holiday I have had some free time to just mess around and since its 28 degrees outside I have been messing around modeling different subwoofers and reading into their specifications. Some I have had and some I have done a lot of research into. I think I recognize that there seem to be only a few select brands and specific subwoofers that get all the love and others just get forgotten or cast aside as not worthy. So I came up with a small list of what I call under appreciated subwoofers that I think should get more press for what they are. I went through a decent amount of them mulling over Parts Express and Madisound and a few other select underground sites where the mainstream stuff doesn't exist. For reference I'm going to use the AudioFrog GB12 as the benchmark by which all these are measured since many here have had experience with this forum boner and for good reason. Here is the list that I came up with models attached. All are modeled as 12" subwoofers U.O.N and in ported boxes because I think ported boxes give the best SQ and SPL in car audio if they are tuned low, have DSP intervention, and built right. Some of these subwoofers are only available in 10" versions or just work better as 10" so I have noted as such.
#1 Eminence Lab 12C, with a cast aluminum basket, paper cone, modest box requirements it works well for car audio and models very closely to the GB12 for less than half the price. Its one of those subwoofers that I think should be mentioned more often. I would say its only drawback is its surround may not stand up to UV rays over time in a car environment. This subwoofer only needs 500 watts (same as GB12) to get down. Lab 12c green Vb= 1.96 cu ft net fb= 31 Hz AF GB orange Vb= 1.633 Fb= 30.73 Hz . You can see in this graph that the two on 500 watts model closely and the Lab 12C has a little better sensitivity but requires a slightly larger box.
Attachment 7871
#2 Scan Speak Discovery 26W/4558T00. This subwoofer is a lower powered 10" subwoofer but models well in both sealed and ported configurations. It has one of the lowest F3 points when modeling sealed. In the attached graph it is in a ported box with an Vb of 1.184 and a fb of 25.28 Hz. It has a black anodized aluminum cone, cast basket, and very low distortion. If you're looking for a very low distortion subwoofer on modest power than this subwoofer should be at the top of your list. In the attached graph below both are modeled at 425 watts RMS because the Scan runs out of excursion in this box above that power level.
Attachment 7872
#3 CSS SDX12 XBL2 12" Subwoofer. This subwoofer is somewhat well known but still doesn't get the love it deserves. Unlike a lot of XBL subwoofers I have modeled this one does well in a ported box. It requires, like many XBL subwoofers a lot of power but it also has very low distortion too. It really wants a big box but will do fine in a smaller box for car audio. Model specifications are Vb= 2, fb= 31 hz compared to the GB12, same box specifications as above but on 600 watts. Again, CSS SDX12 (red) vs AF GB12 (orange).
Attachment 7873
#4 Sundown SD3 10 and Sundown SD3 12. Yeah I know it is probably one of the most popular subwoofers on forums like this but seriously this subwoofer is fantastic for the price. It has an underhung voice coil design, is relatively shallow depth, and doesn’t give up Xmax or make lots of distortion either. It also hits really low in a ported box even though Sundown does not recommend it be used in a ported box. I own the SD3 10 version and it actually hits lower than my GB12 below 37 Hz with a 10" driver against a 12" driver. Sundown SD3 10 (yellow) vb= 1.577 fb= 31.49 vs AF GB12 vb= 1.633 fb= 30.73 (orange) on 500 watts.
Attachment 7874
Here is the Sundown SD3 12 (black) vs AF GB12 (orange) on 500 watts.
Attachment 7875
#5 SSA ICON 12. This subwoofer I think is really underappreciated for the specifications it has and if you really want some ass kicking lows and have the 1250 watts it demands (probably could take more) than this beast is it. It’s also a beautiful looking subwoofer in my opinion with a very attractive price for what you get. EDIT: changed the T/S parameters because I had them input wrong before which changed the model slightly.
Here it is modeled all by itself because an AF GB12 wont hang with this thing due to different power levels. SSA ICON 12 vb= 1.75 fb= 31 Hz.
Attachment 7892
SSA ICON 12 (red) vs AF GB12 (orange) on 600 watts for comparison sake.
Attachment 7893
Well that's it for now. I'm sure I missed a bunch of them and if you want you can post them up here. If I get the time I may model them for you against the benchmark GB12 and post it here.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Keep this going. Very interesting.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Dammit, I forgot FU Audio, wanted to include that one. Will do that later on.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Mostly personal reasons, but I am sure a lot of others would be interested in this info as well.
Could you model some shallow mounts that are currently available?
Higher Priced Options:
JL TW3 12"
Alpine SWR-T12
ARC Audio SW 12d2
Illusion Audio C12 (Is this one still available? Crutchfield shows discontinued)
More lower $$ options:
Dayton LS10 and LS12
Rockford Prime and Punch 12 Shallow
Pioneer TS-SW3002S4
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Here is #6 with an allotment of subwoofers from the same company. Sort of a fledgling company (I think) with some decent subwoofers for a good price. I had two FU300 subwoofers once that performed above expectations and took a lot more power than rated. I had a listen to a 15" 750 that literally shock the block on 1000 watts. Below is the FU Audio 1250 Vb= 1.673 Fb= 30 Hz (green) vs FU Audio 750 Vb 2.11 Fb 26.04 Hz, (red) vs the same GB12 (orange) as listed above for reference.
Attachment 7878
Here is the Fu Audio 1250 (green) on 1250 watts compared to the SSA ICON (blue) from above.
Attachment 7879
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Very cool thread. I love seeing comparisons like this. Thanks for the effort.
On a side note, one of the nicest sounding subs I ever owned was the new-ish Phoenix Gold Ti3X12d2. I used the sub in a ported and a sealed enclosure and the sub performed equally well in each box. Great sound and very smooth.
I'm not sure how the graphs would look as I never tested the sub in such a way. So it could just be me, but I loved that woofer.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
The fu looks like a "bandpass" with the 35 hZ !
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
The Seas L26ROY 10" might be worth adding to the list. Tons of travel for a ten inch woofer with a reasonable enclosure size.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...1001-04-4-ohm/
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
Mostly personal reasons, but I am sure a lot of others would be interested in this info as well.
Could you model some shallow mounts that are currently available?
Higher Priced Options:
JL TW3 12"
JL doesn't offer Le which is needed to show the higher frequency roll off so unless I have that its not worth modeling.
Alpine SWR-T12
See attached in green
ARC Audio SW 12d2
See attached in yellow
Illusion Audio C12 (Is this one still available? Crutchfield shows discontinued)
Discontinued from what I can tell so I didn't bother.
Attachment 7883
More lower $$ options:
Dayton LS10 and LS12
See attached
Rockford Prime and Punch 12 Shallow
This was tough to get information on so I had to dig for this one. I'm not entirely sure its 100% accurate and if it is this subwoofer sucks.
Pioneer TS-SW3002S4
Not bad but has a weak magnet and high Qts, better suited for a sealed enclosure but works ok ported too.
Dayton LS1044 (blue) Dayton LS1244 (purple) RF (blue) Pioneer (red)
Attachment 7884
Box volume and tuning frequency
Dayton LS1044 Vb= 1.148 Fb= 30.69 Hz
Dayton LS1244 Vb= 2.0 Fb= 31 Hz (wants a big box but forced a smaller one)
Alpine SWR-T12 Vb= 1.5 Fb= 31 Hz
P3SD4-12 shallow Vb= 1.25 Fb= 42.5 per manufacturer specs.
ARC Audio SW 12d2 Vb= 1.725 Fb= 23.18
Pioneer TS-SW3002S4 Vb= 1.6 Fb= 31
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Certain box building programs figure missing info from supplied information !
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Justin Zazzi
That is a good one Justin. See below on 400 watts. Vb= 1.925 Fb= 22.88 Hz.
Seas L26ROY 10" Subwoofer (blue) vs AudioFrog GB12 (orange)
Attachment 7885
Here is the Seas in purple with a 25 Hz Fb, same Vb. Sundown SD3-10 is in yellow for reference from above.
Attachment 7886
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Thanks for those!
The pioneer kind of suprises me considering you can pick up a 12" version with a pioneer box for like $122
https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-SW...9-efa3b2de3e71
Also, is that Rockford sub this one
https://rockfordfosgate.com/products/details/r2sd4-12/
Or this one:
https://rockfordfosgate.com/products/details/p3sd4-12/
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
What About the SSA Demon 10? I’ve wondered if this would be a viable option since it’s only has a depth of 5 5/8. Possible alternative to the Sundown SDS-10
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
SSA Demon 10 is aesthetically pleasing ( a looker ) T/S parameters look good for ported/vented enclosure .
https://limitlesslithium.com/demon-1...woofer-by-ssa/
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Queef
Seems to be more of an SPL type subwoofer with a high 43.6 resonant frequency. The higher fs reduces output at that frequency which could be good for cabin gain if you do not have a DSP I guess. You can see this in the graph as a dip in the response. It doesn't need a big box either which is nice.
SSA Demon Vb= 1.6 Fb= 30 Hz (Red) vs SSA Demon Vb= .9 Fb= 33 Hz per SSA (green) vs Sundown SD3 10 (yellow) same as above. Le is not given so that is why the response for the Demon doesn't taper off.
Attachment 7895
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Thank you for this.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
I have been a fan of Scan Speak, have built a number of Revelator based kit home speakers and have a Revelator 28W/4878T00 I plan on building an enclosure for in the shallow storage space in the back of my X6. Challenge is the ideal sealed enclosure size is 1.5 cubic feet. I will be lucky to fit 1.3 cu ft. The Discovery 26W/4558T only requires .5 and is not as deep.
I also built a 1 cubic foot enclosure with the 9” 23W/4557T02 with a 23W/0-00-00 passive radiator and would consider using them in a new box since I could build a smaller enclosure but like the Discovery, runs out of excursion and won’t take much power or play as loud. What it will do is play very low with low distortion. I also don’t think I need to play so loud as to run out of excursion but don’t know for sure.
Any thoughts on the Revelator subs? Which of my two options do you think would work better?
Thanks.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
If box is to small , stuffing it can gain back some cubic footage.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Queef
If box is to small , stuffing it can gain back some cubic footage.
If that was for me, thanks. Yes, aware of that and plan on stuffing the enclosure well.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
The great thing about a too small box ? The mono midbass !
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JCsAudio
During this holiday I have had some free time to just mess around and since its 28 degrees outside I have been messing around modeling different subwoofers and reading into their specifications. Some I have had and some I have done a lot of research into. I think I recognize that there seem to be only a few select brands and specific subwoofers that get all the love and others just get forgotten or cast aside as not worthy. So I came up with a small list of what I call under appreciated subwoofers that I think should get more press for what they are. I went through a decent amount of them mulling over Parts Express and Madisound and a few other select underground sites where the mainstream stuff doesn't exist. For reference I'm going to use the AudioFrog GB12 as the benchmark by which all these are measured since many here have had experience with this forum boner and for good reason. Here is the list that I came up with models attached. All are modeled as 12" subwoofers U.O.N and in ported boxes because I think ported boxes give the best SQ and SPL in car audio if they are tuned low, have DSP intervention, and built right. Some of these subwoofers are only available in 10" versions or just work better as 10" so I have noted as such.
#1
Eminence Lab 12C, with a cast aluminum basket, paper cone, modest box requirements it works well for car audio and models very closely to the GB12 for less than half the price. Its one of those subwoofers that I think should be mentioned more often. I would say its only drawback is its surround may not stand up to UV rays over time in a car environment. This subwoofer only needs 500 watts (same as GB12) to get down. Lab 12c green Vb= 1.96 cu ft net fb= 31 Hz AF GB orange Vb= 1.633 Fb= 30.73 Hz . You can see in this graph that the two on 500 watts model closely and the Lab 12C has a little better sensitivity but requires a slightly larger box.
Attachment 7871
#2
Scan Speak Discovery 26W/4558T00.
This subwoofer is a lower powered 10" subwoofer but models well in both sealed and ported configurations. It has one of the lowest F3 points when modeling sealed. In the attached graph it is in a ported box with an Vb of 1.184 and a fb of 25.28 Hz. It has a black anodized aluminum cone, cast basket, and very low distortion. If you're looking for a very low distortion subwoofer on modest power than this subwoofer should be at the top of your list. In the attached graph below both are modeled at 425 watts RMS because the Scan runs out of excursion in this box above that power level.
Attachment 7872
#3 CSS SDX12 XBL2 12" Subwoofer. This subwoofer is somewhat well known but still doesn't get the love it deserves. Unlike a lot of XBL subwoofers I have modeled this one does well in a ported box. It requires, like many XBL subwoofers a lot of power but it also has very low distortion too. It really wants a big box but will do fine in a smaller box for car audio. Model specifications are Vb= 2, fb= 31 hz compared to the GB12, same box specifications as above but on 600 watts. Again, CSS SDX12 (red) vs AF GB12 (orange).
Attachment 7873
#4 Sundown SD3 10 and Sundown SD3 12. Yeah I know it is probably one of the most popular subwoofers on forums like this but seriously this subwoofer is fantastic for the price. It has an underhung voice coil design, is relatively shallow depth, and doesn’t give up Xmax or make lots of distortion either. It also hits really low in a ported box even though Sundown does not recommend it be used in a ported box. I own the SD3 10 version and it actually hits lower than my GB12 below 37 Hz with a 10" driver against a 12" driver. Sundown SD3 10 (yellow) vb= 1.577 fb= 31.49 vs AF GB12 vb= 1.633 fb= 30.73 (orange) on 500 watts.
Attachment 7874
Here is the Sundown SD3 12 (black) vs AF GB12 (orange) on 500 watts.
Attachment 7875
#5
SSA ICON 12. This subwoofer I think is really underappreciated for the specifications it has and if you really want some ass kicking lows and have the 1250 watts it demands (probably could take more) than this beast is it. It’s also a beautiful looking subwoofer in my opinion with a very attractive price for what you get.
EDIT: changed the T/S parameters because I had them input wrong before which changed the model slightly.
Here it is modeled all by itself because an AF GB12 wont hang with this thing due to different power levels. SSA ICON 12 vb= 1.75 fb= 31 Hz.
Attachment 7892
SSA ICON 12 (red) vs AF GB12 (orange) on 600 watts for comparison sake.
Attachment 7893
Well that's it for now. I'm sure I missed a bunch of them and if you want you can post them up here. If I get the time I may model them for you against the benchmark GB12 and post it here.
#3 CSS SDX12's can use A LOT more power than that, I'm running them at 1800 rms in 1.25 cubic feet sealed, each.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ckirocz28
#3 CSS SDX12's can use A LOT more power than that, I'm running them at 1800 rms in 1.25 cubic feet sealed, each.
Just out of curiosity, how long have you been giving them that much power? They look like an incredibly underrated sub.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Interested on that scanspeak 26. I need a single coil 10 that will work in a tiny sealed box. What size was it moddled in
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
1/2 cu ft is what Scanspeak calls for in vehicle and 1/2 inch of linear excursion Scanspeak claims .
425 watt in box he modelled it in.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Is that gross or net? Because I have 400 watts but i have .5 gross
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Scanspeak sub will work in whatever size you put it in.
The frequency range moves up higher as space gets smaller (a half pound of acoustistuf will allow a little lower notes to play )?
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
So slightly smaller box. 8 ounce poly fill and letterip
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Queef
The great thing about a too small box ? The mono midbass !
The high frequencies play better ! Not like IB subs.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Guys, the power and box size and type are listed with the graphs I posted so all the information is listed there. I used 600 or 1000 watts and a ported box design as a reference point comparing it to the benchmarked GB12 so obviously if you wanted you could use more power depending on your subs needs and application. Sealed boxes, especially small sealed boxes are going to require more power to get the same SPL as a ported box and with more power in a sealed box you may get more distortion due to more cone excursion.
A lot of subwoofers can take much more power than their listed power rating for short periods of time on music. The power rating of the subwoofer isn’t universally the same across all makes and models either and it’s really a thermal rating of the coil. Some manufacturers are conservative with their ratings and others list it closer to the actual limit of the coils thermal capability. There isn’t really a standard with that. The type of coil design, # of shorting rings, aluminum or copper wire, cone/VC material, box design and size, and coil size all change the power requirements of the subwoofer.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blockrocker
Just out of curiosity, how long have you been giving them that much power? They look like an incredibly underrated sub.
A few months, maybe 6-7, but I don't pound on them too much. All of the box modeling software and spreadsheets I used pointed to @1800 watts rms to reach Xmax. They probably aren't getting too much more than 1200 very often, I just set my gains for 1800, they do seem quite content though.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Queef
I'd my current sub doesn't work to my liking, that's what I was doing to get except the non slim version
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
That one is good in under 1/2 cu ft , if regular or full size sub is to , perfect !
What about displacement or how much space sub takes up ? Still stuff the box , no matter which one you use.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
What about the Stereo Integrity RM-12? Or even the new upcoming SQL 12 and SQL 15. I’ve been considering trying out a single 12 Sealed. Seems like there was a little buzz on the RM-12 but sort of died out.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaegearman
What about the Stereo Integrity RM-12? Or even the new upcoming SQL 12 and SQL 15. I’ve been considering trying out a single 12 Sealed. Seems like there was a little buzz on the RM-12 but sort of died out.
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I was wondering when someone was going to mention Stereo Integrity. I’ll see if I can get those modeled up soon.
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Yes please
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Im surprised I dont see more of TREO Engeneering stuff arround - very nice sounding subs - the old TSX model was IMHO one of the best price-performance drivers, their higher lines like SSX were just awesome and almost undestructable - I used them for dBDrag compettitions - a WR setters
New CV Strokers - the same thing as TREO
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Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LBaudio
New CV Strokers - the same thing as TREO
Yes on Cerwin Vegas ever since ????
Just one of the best ever ( over sung , though )
Cost alot and perform like it !
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3 Attachment(s)
Re: Under appreciated Subwoofers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaegearman
What about the Stereo Integrity RM-12? Or even the new upcoming SQL 12 and SQL 15. I’ve been considering trying out a single 12 Sealed. Seems like there was a little buzz on the RM-12 but sort of died out.
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See attached model below in the same ported box and power as the first simulations. I know the ST can take more but for comparisons sake I'm keeping things apples to apples. Stereo Integrity RM-12 (Green) vs AudioFrog GB12 (orange)
Attachment 8347
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LBaudio
Im surprised I dont see more of TREO Engeneering stuff arround - very nice sounding subs - the old TSX model was IMHO one of the best price-performance drivers, their higher lines like SSX were just awesome and almost undestructable - I used them for dBDrag compettitions - a WR setters
New CV Strokers - the same thing as TREO
Those look interesting LBaudio. I didn't find a SSX but I did find a TE model that is rated for 500 watts and taunted for its SQ so I modeled that one compared to the AF GB12 in the same ported box. Treo Enginering TE Sub D2 (Yellow) vs AudioFrog GB12 (orange)
Attachment 8348
All three together.
Attachment 8349
http://www.treoonline.com/ssx.html
https://stereointegrity.com/product/rm-12/