Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
Update time. No major changes but a bunch of evolutionary ones. Lots of trial and error with tuning my first DSP setup, gradually learning REW as well. I've recently decided to start from scratch with the tune, now that I have a better idea about my preferences and my gear. Ideally starting fresh I can optimize things better with levels/crossovers as a starting point before EQ and try using REW more to my benefit. Should've taken more pics but I get focused on what I'm doing and forget.
I realized that my resistor box (which tricks the head unit into "seeing" speakers) was causing distortion at higher volumes (it was loading the OEM amplifier down, which feeds my DSP). I removed it, which once again disabled the OEM head-unit fader. I disconnected the rear speakers for now, but I'd still like to come up with a way to turn them for the rare occasions I have rear passengers who want to listen to music. Might have to install a physical switch for them. Still worth it for what I gained in clean headroom!
I took apart my front doors again, in an effort to chase down rattles/buzzes with auto/marine closed cell foam tape. I discovered that the small hard plastic access panels were acting a bit like passive radiators tuned to 110hz, the resonance would go away when I pressed on them. I decided to screw a piece of mending plate to them (ccf sandwiched between), the added mass pretty much killed the resonance. I also went to town with CCF tape anywhere plastic touched metal, which has reduced many sources of buzzing:
Attachment 9801
I also realized that my map pockets were flexing causing resonances, even though I had cld applied to the inside of them. I made-up some braces from broken mic stand caps and furniture feet, seems hokey but they actually make a difference. I've placed them far enough back that they're not really in the way.
Attachment 9800Attachment 9799Attachment 9798
Those two changes resulted in much cleaner midbass from the door woofers (enough that I had to adjust my tuning to compensate). I also managed to subdue most rattles and buzzes with the exception of the outside door handles. They're plastic and buzz horribly against the door metal (inside and out) at around 120hz. I was able to reduce it somewhat with CCF smooshed into gaps under the handles but I have no idea how I could eliminate it with the way they're designed.
I recently swapped my woofer baffles for NVX silicon ones, which actually made a surprising change to midbass impact. More details on that in this thread: https://www.caraudiojunkies.com/show...omparison-Test
Attachment 9802
Lastly, more random resonance/rattle chasing. I did a bunch of CCF taping where my cargo floor sits on the plastic framework and put more CLD on the bottom of the cargo floor. I also CLD's and CCF taped the rear-hatch which was very tinny. If nothing else it's reduced road-noise from the back of the car and killed a few rattles. The rear passenger dome light also rattles a bunch, I removed it, put CLD on the roof above it and stacked some CCF tape in-between. Better, but still rattles a bit with certain bass freqs. I'll have to have another go at it.
10 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
I decided I wanted to try something a little different. Years ago I was messing around in winisd, discovered that the cheap n' cheerful Silver Flute 6.5's modeled surprisingly well in a tiny ported enclosure, tuned for midbass. I realized that the Golf has a decent amount of space under the front-half of the front seats, older years came with a little storage drawer there. So, ported underseat midbasses.
Why? Mainly, I just wanted to try something new, something I've never heard in a car before. Secondly, my doors have a big null around 120hz, putting a big hurt on midbass. I tried crossing my sub higher, but it's under the cargo floor and that doesn't sound the greatest above 80-90hz. I borrowed a tiny set of old surplus TOA monitors, did a little test with them under the seats, hooked up to a home amp. They didn't exhibit the nulls that the door woofers were suffering from, and didn't sound terrible there, so I was encouraged to dive deeper into the idea.
I made some cardboard test enclosures to figure out clearances and determine how much space I could fit. I realized that a crossbar under the seat limited my space, but that an external port would tuck underneath it and free-up enclosure space. So, external port.
Attachment 13259
I was in the "what the hell, why not" stage at this point. The drivers are cheap, I had a spare amp that ran the midbasses in my last car (Kenwood KAC-M3004). I wouldn't have to cut/modify anything and I'd keep my existing 6.5 door woofers (but cross them like large midranges), so it would be pretty easy to undo if I didn't like the results.
The Silver Flutes are surprisingly nice for a cheap woofer. Cast basket, beefy magnet, 5mm xmax and decent sensitivity.
Attachment 13260
I also wanted to have another go at woodworking, since I'm not very good at it. Space constraints meant needing pretty thin material, so I chose baltic birch for the most strength. Top plate/baffles are 1/2", all other walls are 1/4" Many "practice cuts" later, I started getting some decently straight cuts in the correct dimension. Used wood glue with clamps. I also decided to make small braces to help out strength-wise, at the cost of some airspace.
Attachment 13261
I found some Braun central vacuum 2" pvc port pieces, which had thinner walls and tighter elbows than plumbing stuff. Filed and sanded all internal edges to help reduce port noise, secured with metal strapping and ccf foam. Spray-bombed all of these pieces black.
Attachment 13262
The thinner walls did have a bit of a hollow sound, so I added some dynamat I had to help with resonances. This is right before gluing the final bottom plates.
Attachment 13264
Final boxes. Roughly 0.157 cu.ft gross, maybe 0.145 net. Ports are tuned to 70hz. I oriented the port exit to be on the same plane as the woofer.
Attachment 13263
I found some old grills in my hoard that fit the 'Flutes perfectly. No idea what they were from, not branded. I'll take it! They tuck under the seats pretty well, with some clearance between the woofer and the seat. Secured the boxes to the seat cross-braces with small bungee cords for safety, but they don't move around. Floor shape and floor mats hold them in place.
Attachment 13267
With the seats in a normal position, you barely see the boxes. Seats retain full rearward travel, forward travel has been somewhat limited but, if necessary in an extreme situation, they can be easily removed.
Attachment 13266
Lastly, I squeezed in the Kenwood amp. Gives the 'Flutes 150wrms each. With an 80hz 12db crossover, they won't hit xmax in these boxes until over 180 watts (I forget the exact number). I re-worked the cabling a bit, made new rca's and tried out some tech flex to clean it up. Not a lot of room to work with, but it all still fits under the cargo floor. I may put some grommet holes through the plastic cross piece to let hot air flow out of the amp compartment, but nothing's overheated so far.
Attachment 13265Attachment 13268
So. How do they sound? Actually, pretty good. I'm not trying to get them to play lower, the sub is still doing the heavy lifting there. But they have effortless midbass, which is what I wanted all along. I'm crossing them 80hz 24db to 165hz 24db at present. They're very efficient, so you actually don't feel them much under you, they're not working nearly as hard as my door woofers did at 85hz 24db and have tons more output. Once I realized the best phase relationship with the sub was with a 24db slope on both ends, they kind of clicked into place. Bass stays up front, but not quite as far forward as it was with the door woofers. I don't have hardly any of the resonances that the door panels had. I also have way better stereo separation in the midbass, since with the old setup I had the sub crossed much higher to help out. Stuff like the floor toms on "Sing Sing Sing" in the Swing Kids soundtrack (which are panned hard-right) have much better placement. They do have a big peak in the car, around 103hz. Still tweaking that with the dsp, and I probably still have them a bit too loud. But they're FUN. Tons of snap, Billie Jean and other tracks with high-tuned kick drums are just super-fun to listen to. They seem to have plenty of headroom.
They're not perfect, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep them. Just need some more time to dial them in. I also need to cover them, I got some automotive vinyl wrap as I figured that's the thinnest thing I could use (don't have enough clearance for carpet).
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
Now THAT... is outside the box thinking :thumbup:
3 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
I've been tinkering a lot over the past few months, my build log is way out of date at this point...Even though some of these changes are no longer in the car, I'm still going to post them in the order they happened.
First up: I had originally mounted my Hertz Mille Pro tweets in the factory mounts. While I mostly liked the sound of the factory a-pillar locations, I didn't like how the tweets were aimed down at the dash. They were also very far off axis, I found the left tweeter rolled-off much earlier than the right. Took a lot of eq to try and even them out at the driver's seat. I decided I wanted to modify the factory mounts to try to get a bit of different aiming for the tweeters.
Attachment 14249
I was able to cut the plastic-welds out of the stock grills. This let me mess around with the tweets without having to remove the entire a-pillar each time (which is a huge pain in the ass in this car). I used metal plumber's strapping, I love this stuff for tweeter mounting as it's flexible enough to be adjusted, yet strong enough to hold it's shape. I realized I couldn't go too crazy on angles since I wanted to keep a low-profile. But I was able to get them a bit more on-axis, and pointed slightly upward instead of down. Having the tweets pushed further out instead of deeper in the hole also made an improvement.
Attachment 14250
The other thing I learned was that the factory plastic honeycomb grills were murdering the treble. I'm not sure if I still have it somewhere but I did a rough mic measurement of grill/no grill and it was significant. So I made my own using plastic from pool-side signage (thanks Blockrocker!) as frames, then stretching grill cloth overtop and velcro-taping them to the a-pillar. After a rough failed attempt using the wrong glue in the wrong places, my second attempt turned out ok. Kept a nice, low profile.
Attachment 14251
I think I may make a separate post with more details regarding my subjective observations with all my tweeter experiments. It's crazy how small changes made noticeable differences in sound.
2 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
After listening to a few local Junkies systems, I started to realize that they had WAY less distortion in their systems than me. To be fair they had way nicer gear but I feel like something wasn't quite right. I did some experimenting and ran an old ipod classic into the second inputs of my Dayton DSP, then did some A/B comparisons with the factory HU. The difference was...shocking. The factory HU was boosting the bass and midrange like crazy, despite being set flat, and it had significantly more distortion than even the crummy headphone jack on the old ipod.
After having a small meltdown over how much effort I had been putting into polishing a turd, I broke down and got myself a baby Fiio M3 Pro. I chose the this one because: It's cheap ($130 CDN), has a decent DAC for it's price, is small and unobtrusive so I'm not too worried leaving it in the car when parked, it has physical buttons for play/pause/track skip (VERY important for driving), plus it's capable of outputting audio via USB, so it would accommodate a future DSP upgrade that had USB input capability (hint hint...). The factory HU is still mixed into the DSP, so I can take phone calls or monitor radio stations (I'm a broadcast tech, it's necessary for my work).
Attachment 14252
I also added a little Fostex passive line-level controller. I set the Fiio output for fixed line level, I much prefer the knob for volume adjustments.
Attachment 14253
This has been the single greatest sq improvement in my system (even including the later changes that will be posted here). Source unit quality really does matter folks.
I also went on a rampage re-ripping cd's to FLAC, re-downloading Bandcamp purchases to FLAC or in some cases outright re-purchasing certain things in FLAC (I'm a weirdo who absolutely has to have ownership of my audio library, in physical files, not tied to internet or any specific platform). My Factory HU could only play MP3, which was annoying as I had to convert a lot of AAC files I had to MP3 just so they would work in the car. FLAC has been a nice source upgrade over 320MP3.
More to come! Gotta eat now.
2 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
A couple of minor things. I installed four desktop grommets into the cargo divider, the idea being hot air from the amp compartment might be able to vent out into the larger spare tire area.
Attachment 14254
I also finally got around to finishing my midbass enclosures. I used Vivid automotive vinyl wrap (satin black), this was my first time ever working with it. The corners ended up a little lumpy but at least they're mostly hidden under the seats so no one will see them. I spray-painted the back wall as it has the ports, brackets and speaker terminals. Would've been a nightmare to try and wrap.
Attachment 14255
4 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
Once I had decided the underseat 'Flutes were staying, it freed up my options for mid-woofers a bit since I didn't have to worry about a car-specific driver that could produce midbass in a car door. I've been curious about Wavecor drivers, their Balanced Drive range has measured very well on HiFiCompass and other test sites. Solen had the 6" 4ohm paper version on sale at half-price, at $180 for the pair it seemed like a low-risk experiment. A 4-5" mid would've been better for mid-range, but these do have to play down to 170hz or so and have better sensitivity than the 4.75" version of this driver. Also, I don't mind beaming roll-off between 2-3khz as I prefer a nice dip in that range anyway, that's where harshness lives at louder volumes and I'm very sensitive to it.
Attachment 14257
Side by side with the old Hertz Mille Pro 6.5 (Wavecor on left). Despite being a smaller cone, it's quite a bit beefier
Attachment 14259
After measuring clearances, I decided to keep the original 1" hdpe spacers and made 3/8" adapters out of cutting board hdpe. I had also gotten some Blackhole Tiles, which I put in each door as a "what the hell, why not" thing. The additional 3/8" moves the mid-woofer closer to the door grill, which I think is a good thing.
Attachment 14258
Mini-subjective review: I really like these mid-woofers. They have very low distortion and good sensitivity, they stay clean and keep their composure even at loud volumes (something the Hertz could not do). They kind of have a neutral-warm sound and take eq very well. The combo of smaller cone being closer to the grill results in a more even roll off between left and right drivers. I wouldn't say they're detail monsters but they're still very decent. I like how they allow good recordings to shine but don't rip bad recordings apart (I listen to a lot of small indie bands whose recording budgets are tiny...). They pretty much do exactly what I want them to in my system, they're staying.
2 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
Once I had the Wavecors in, it became apparent that the tweets needed an upgrade to match. I liked the Hertz Mille Pros, but they weren't happy below 3.8k 24LR at loud volumes. They would get gritty if crossed lower. I wanted a beefier, lower distortion tweet that could cross lower (ideally 3khz), keep up with the Wavecors and stay clean. Unfortunately, after looking at many tweet options I realized nothing out there was going to do what I wanted AND fit in the factory hole like the Hertz did. I did tons of research and chatted with some audio friends, in the end decided on the Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 1".
Because they were going to stick out no matter what, I did a ton of experimenting on angles with trusty plumber's strapping. Surprisingly, I preferred them somewhat off-axis (I intend to go into more detail on this in a separate thread). Once I had an idea of the angle I wanted, I had to figure out how to mount them without destroying the factory a-pillar (had to keep mounting holes inside of the factory grille area). I decided to make larger mounting plates with more plastic pool-side signage material, then used more strapping and spent more time aiming. I feel it really is worth spending the time and patience on aiming to get something you're happy with.
Attachment 14260
Attachment 14267
I then wrapped the whole thing with grill cloth. It's an awkward shape, but at least the matte black of the grill cloth makes them blend in a little bit, especially from outside the car. They don't interfere with my sightlines which is very important to me. No giant, obtrusive mid/tweet pods for this guy.
Attachment 14261
Attachment 14268
There's plenty written about these tweets. I really like them, their character matches the Wavecors very well. Even though they can easily handle a lower crossover point, I prefer them at 3khz 24LR. They can take that at very loud volumes and stay smooth and clean, no harshness. I like that they're not too bright, yet they still have good detail for my tastes.
2 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
After the mid/tweet changes, the dam broke and I decided my system goals had changed. The old system was geared more towards bang for the buck, which it did very well (partly because I got lucky on some sale pricing on many items). But I want to take everything up a notch or two, without going too crazy on budget. The Dayton DSP-408 has done far better than I could've imagined, with time and patience I've been able to get pretty decent sound out of it. But I wanted an upgrade, I decided to treat myself and got a Helix DSP.3. I also got a Director and USB HEC card (which would bypass the DAC in my little Fiio M3 Pro).
Attachment 14269
I've left the cargo divider out of this pic, not too much to see, it's not much larger than the Dayton. Lots of annoying cabling changes to the center console (I don't enjoy working on this car). My only beef install-wise is that it doesn't come with an inline fuse for the power wire like the Dayton did. Luckily I had one kicking around from another project.
Attachment 14270
Attachment 14262
The Director fits nicely in the console cubby. The bottom is held with velcro tape, after this pic I used some rubber feet to wedge the top of it into the door. I still need to work on USB cable routing, I think I'm going to use some extender cables to move the Director USB and HU USB (for Android Auto) into the glove box.
Attachment 14263
After spending so much time with the Dayton, I'm still getting used to the new DSP. It has way more features, plus its EQ Level and Q gradients are much finer (even though both DSP's move in 0.1db increments, they are NOT the same!). The Helix also has a lower noise floor and stronger line outputs. Using the analog input to the Fiio for comparison sake, honestly the difference sound-wise isn't as big as I was expecting. It is a bit cleaner and crisper, with what I feel is a smoother, richer sound. But it's subtle, considering the cost difference to the plucky Dayton. To be fair, I had the Dayton fairly dialed-in and I'm starting from scratch with the Helix. With so many EQ bands available, I think it will be easier to L/R balance drivers, then make linked tone changes without upsetting that balance. I was constantly putting myself in see-saw situations with the Dayton.
I then switched to the USB HEC input, and that made another noticeable improvement. The DAC in the M3 Pro isn't bad, especially for it's price, but bypassing that DAC and using only the one in the Helix is definitely better. I just wish there was a way to simultaneously power the Fiio while using the USB HEC, which seems to eat the Fiio's battery much faster than the analog output. Annoying to have a rolling power generator and yet be constantly worried about recharging the Fiio.
The Helix has many nice usability features as well. Its input impedance on the high-level inputs satisfies the VW speaker diagnostics, so I don't need to cheat it with an external resistor box to avoid throwing error codes. The sources can be set to auto-switch on audio detection, so if a call comes in on my HU bluetooth it will mute the Fiio audio and switch to the HU. The Director in hindsight is a little overkill for me, but it's nice nonetheless. I wish it gave me a way to switch between the Analog Aux in and USB HEC Aux in (seems like I can only do that in the PC-Tool)
Out of the effects, the only one I like is the StageXpander. With the Dayton, I used to cheat my tweeter TA (less TA on both tweets) to create the sense of a wider stage, at the cost of center image focus. With the Helix effect, I can set the tweeter TA correctly and use the effect to give a sense of a wider stage. I found I didn't like going higher than "medium" though, it gets a little obnoxious at higher levels.
I'm sure I have plenty to learn still, I don't regret this purchase at all.
That's it for now. I have a feeling that down the road I will be doing a sub upgrade (thinking Audiomobile Evo 12), and amp upgrades (Arc Audio, MMATS or Biketronics are the front-runners in my mind, sticking with Class D).
11 Attachment(s)
Re: 2018 Golf Sportwagen Simple Build
Got myself a shiny new subwoofer. Decided to try out the new Audiomobile EVO 12", which is a shallow-ish 12 designed for small sealed enclosures. 4.5" deep, 500w, 14.1mm xmax. I heard the 10" version in another system last year and liked it so I thought I'd give Audiomobile a shot.
I decided to try adding-on to my existing enclosure to get more airspace. I'm not much of a carpenter, but I've been enjoying having a go at it anyways. Had to get a little creative to maximize space while keeping the spare tire and I only used a jigsaw, so don't judge me too harshly! DavidRAM please avert your eyes, I LOVE drywall screws:nana:
Here's the new 12 next to my faithful old Alpine SWS 10. The Audiomobile is noticeably lighter, probably due to the alloy frame.
Attachment 15681
I realized the spare tire post stuck up quite a bit more than needed. I was able to trim it down and gain a couple of inches, the nut still threads on and secures the tire.
Attachment 15679
Bottom side of the old enclosure. The middle pieces were to gain enough depth for the Alpine. The side spacer rails were needed to clear the tire post (before I cut it).
Attachment 15680
I made new rings and stacked them to maximize volume inside of the spare tire, had to square it off a bit due to the location of the old pieces. Also had to stagger it a bit for the changing diameter inside the wheel. I also removed the side rails to drop the whole box down lower, the old sub's cone was very close to the bottom of the cargo floor. I wanted to give the new sub more clearance.
Attachment 15682Attachment 15683
Next up was cutting out the front of the box and making a curved add-on to fit the irregularly-shaped tire well. Making several pieces and stacking them was my solution to making a curved section with my basic-ass skills.
Attachment 15684Attachment 15685Attachment 15686Attachment 15687
Rasped and filed the curved pieces to smooth/blend them a bit better. Tried out some Rust-oleum "Aged Iron" texture spray-paint for a bit of flair. It's hidden under the cargo floor anyways so I wasn't too concerned with getting super-fancy.
Attachment 15688Attachment 15689
So nothing special compared to the works of art that get posted here, but hey my Frankenbox turned out better than I expected! Hard to say what the final volume is with all of the weird curves, but it should be between 0.86 and 0.89 cu.ft after sub displacement. Minimum recommended for this sub is 0.85.
I've only been running it a few days, but so far I like it. Compared to the old 10" the output is more effortless for my needs (I'm not a mega-basshead but I like some oomph) and it has a really nice weight to it. It's noticeably cleaner and more controlled than the Alpine. The Alpine had tons of midbass though, so I've had to alter the crossover to the midbasses quite a bit. Still dialing that in. The only complaint I have with it is extension below 30hz, it's falling off a lot more than the Alpine did. But I'm hoping that will improve a bit with break-in.