SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
"The Helix Real Center algorithm is pretty nice, but i'll be fully honest here.. it will not be able to do 2 seat as well as a properly set up ms8. The Logic 7 upmixing is pretty damn good. The Helix is a better processor overall, but the MS8 has a leg on it in the 2 seat tune department in my opinion." - SkizeR (on January 9, 2019, in the context of a discussion about the Helix DSP Mini)
Posting to ask SkizeR if there's anything different about Helix Real Center implementation on the DSP.3 or Ultra w/VCP that would cause you to offer a different / revised opinion about Real Center on either of those models vs a properly set up MS-8 w/Logic 7, strictly considering a 2-seat tune?
Thanks In Advance.
Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
With the virtual channels, I managed to nail a 2 seat tune in Doug's car that I was thrilled with. If you know what you're doing, I'd say you can get both to work as you want them to.
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Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SkizeR
.... I managed ..... If you know what you're doing, ....
Oh boy, there's the $64k gotchya !
- I'm certainly no SkizeR when it comes to tuning (very far from it)!
- I already have the MS-8 and pretty decent experience with setting it up (lots of years tweaking it in different configurations in my previous Escape and despite its limitations and quirks basically love the results it delivers)
- While the Helix is very attractive for a lot of other reasons it'd be a very expensive upgrade (especially the Ultra to get virtual channels)
- Tuning the Helix would be a totally new learning curve for me even though I have spent some time with REW tweaking the MS-8
- At this time in my life getting to the point of enjoying my music is a higher priority than the 'fun' of learning and tweaking a new system
So it sounds like, given that the 2-seat situation is important for me, I'm gonna be better-off overall sticking with what I know and already have for my new daily driver install.
Sound reasonable?
Thanks for your opinion, it is valued (following your posts over the years has taught / helped me a lot).
Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FordEscape
Oh boy, there's the $64k gotchya !
- I'm certainly no SkizeR when it comes to tuning (very far from it)!
- I already have the MS-8 and pretty decent experience with setting it up (lots of years tweaking it in different configurations in my previous Escape and despite its limitations and quirks basically love the results it delivers)
- While the Helix is very attractive for a lot of other reasons it'd be a very expensive upgrade (especially the Ultra to get virtual channels)
- Tuning the Helix would be a totally new learning curve for me even though I have spent some time with REW tweaking the MS-8
- At this time in my life getting to the point of enjoying my music is a higher priority than the 'fun' of learning and tweaking a new system
So it sounds like, given that the 2-seat situation is important for me, I'm gonna be better-off overall sticking with what I know and already have for my new daily driver install.
Sound reasonable?
Thanks for your opinion, it
is valued (following your posts over the years has taught / helped me a lot).
Real center is present on a dsp mini and dsp.3 also, you don’t need the ultra ;)
Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dumdum
Real center is present on a dsp mini and dsp.3 also, you don’t need the ultra ;)
Understood, just noting that the particular success that SkizeR mentioned in his reply was in the context of also using virtual channels (aka "VCP") and that new feature is only available on the Ultra at this time. The implication being that going through VCP to implement Real Center yielded advantages / better results than Real Center alone as on the mini and DSP.3.
All of this discussion still and always in the context of getting a least-compromised / best result 2-seat tune.
FWIW, I've played extensively with the Helix software in demo-mode for both DSP.3 and Ultra to help understand the Real Center 'setup mechanics' with and without VCP, 'mocking up' my specific IO's, routing, starting point XO's, etc.
Granted, that's a long way from actual real-world setup and tune, but it does help with understanding some of the differences between the two (with and without VCP). And it does make really apparent how great the Helix software is in terms of user-friendliness; I can sure appreciate why Helix is so popular and versatile!
Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
Just to be clear, when you guys are talking about a 2 seat tune using the Helix Ultra Virtual Channels and "center channel" you are talking about setting it up without a physical center speaker ? This is done with processing ?
I'd be intrigued by that if I could get a good 2 seater without a physical center channel.
Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
preston
Just to be clear, when you guys are talking about a 2 seat tune using the Helix Ultra Virtual Channels and "center channel" you are talking about setting it up without a physical center speaker ?
No, in this case talking about with a physical center speaker (or center 2-way array), and with processing specifically designed to help that center speaker along with L&R create a least-compromised / best possible front stage perception for both front occupants.
That's the goal of both Helix "Real Center" and JBL Logic7 with an appropriate center speaker setup and tune.
Never quite as good as a driver gets with an optimal single-seat tune absent a center speaker (where the center-stage is 'phantom'), but when well implemented much better than listeners in 2 seats can get with any tune lacking a properly processed center speaker, at least in my (admittedly limited) experience.
Re: SkizeR on Real Center vs Logic 7 for 2 seat tune .... any update?
It's perfect that I stumbled on this thread after not being on here for a while. I ran the MS-8 as a dedicated upmixer for over a year in my car. I now have the Helix DSP Ultra and use that as an upmixer. The MS-8 is more of a cookie cutter method to a 2 seat tune, but mirroring SkizeR, you must know how to use the Ultra properly to maximize the 2 seat experience. You need to apply all the fundamentals of a 1 seat tune and interpolate them further to account for phase between 2 seats. My setup sounds significantly better using the Ultra as either a 1 seat or 2 seat car.
