Helix Pro Mk2 DSP Tuning and Microphone

Hey Everyone
Thanks for having me, i was lurking over on diyma and decided to try it out over here.
I'll be finishing my install tomorrow and i should have my miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone delivered this weekend. I tried searching around but couldn't find out if i can use the rta funcion on the MK2 with the UMIK-1? My laptop (microsoft surface) only has one usb port, so i would have to use a usb hub.

Also, does anyone know why @skizeR video on using the auto tune function is set to private? Wouldn't mind watching it and trying it out.

Thanks,
Dan

You can use a umik-1 with helix software, You also can add your calibration files to the helix software also, I think nock has covered it in a video at some point also...

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Originally Posted by dumdum

You can use a umik-1 with helix software, You also can add your calibration files to the helix software also, I think nock has covered it in a video at some point also...

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Thanks! I'll poke around and see if i can find the video.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

Also, does anyone know why @skizeR video on using the auto tune function is set to private? Wouldn't mind watching it and trying it out. Dan

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If i remember correctly, he had recently stated in a video interview/show that he is in the mist of redoing his site and he is not a fan of the image his current YTube videos portray so he wants to redo them, so in the meantime he set all of his current stuff to private

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Originally Posted by Cutaway

If i remember correctly, he had recently stated in a video interview/show that he is in the mist of redoing his site and he is not a fan of the image his current YTube videos portray so he wants to redo them, so in the meantime he set all of his current stuff to private

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Thanks for the info.
Anyone have a breakdown of how to use the autoEQ? From what from what I've read on here, it sounds like it works really well, which is great for me because I have no clue when it comes to tuning.

As far as the umik-1, I'll need to copy the values from the mic's calibration file to the one on the mk2? Do I have to do it manually or is there an easier way?

So i've got everything installed and figured out the IO for the helix. Got some baseline numbers for the crossovers.
I got my umik-1 ready and want to try some of the auto features.

To load my calibration, i downloaded it from miniDSP, and i found a "cal.txt" in the helix software folder on the c drive. I just copy over the values from my microphone? The mic calibration file had a ton of data, i just grabbed the one closest to the cal file on the helix. is what i did correct?

So i rigged up my microphone and got it connected. I attempted to use the auto time alignment function, but it didn't really work. It kept on failing when doing the rear speakers (the rears are passive components if that matters). The rears did seem quieter than the rest, so maybe i need to bump up the gain.

I disabled the auto time measurement for the rears, and was able to get it to finish. I back checked the measurements with a tape measure, and seemed like the measurements were switched Left to Right. I ended up just scrapping the auto and used the tape measure and plugged in the measurements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

So i rigged up my microphone and got it connected. I attempted to use the auto time alignment function, but it didn't really work. It kept on failing when doing the rear speakers (the rears are passive components if that matters). The rears did seem quieter than the rest, so maybe i need to bump up the gain.

I disabled the auto time measurement for the rears, and was able to get it to finish. I back checked the measurements with a tape measure, and seemed like the measurements were switched Left to Right. I ended up just scrapping the auto and used the tape measure and plugged in the measurements.

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I think i may have figured out why it wasn't picking up the passenger door speakers. For some reason the gain was tuned down on the helix for the rears. I'll need to hook up the mic again and see how it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

So i've got everything installed and figured out the IO for the helix. Got some baseline numbers for the crossovers.
I got my umik-1 ready and want to try some of the auto features.

To load my calibration, i downloaded it from miniDSP, and i found a "cal.txt" in the helix software folder on the c drive. I just copy over the values from my microphone? The mic calibration file had a ton of data, i just grabbed the one closest to the cal file on the helix. is what i did correct?

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When you say you grabbed the one closest?? You need to copy and paste all the data from the mics calibration file (90 degree or 0 degree depending on if you are pointing the mic up or forwards) into the cal file in helix, not part of it

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Originally Posted by dumdum

When you say you grabbed the one closest?? You need to copy and paste all the data from the mics calibration file (90 degree or 0 degree depending on if you are pointing the mic up or forwards) into the cal file in helix, not part of it

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Thanks dumdum! I did not grab ALL the values, i only used the ones that had a "0.0" value on the Cal.txt within the helix software, i thought it was more of a template that you filled in...i guess not. I will fix that today. There is also some information at the top of the umik-1 cal file ("Sens Factor =2.8694dB, AGain =18dB, SERNO: 7071043""Auto-generated 90-degree calibration file") do i include those as well? I guess i can just overwrite the cal.txt file with the umik-1 file.
Attachment 15134

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Originally Posted by danimal86

I guess i can just overwrite the cal.txt file with the umik-1 file.
Attachment 15134

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Yes, do this. Keep it all. That sensitivity data allows the microphone to actually be used as a semi decent SPL meter.

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Yes, do this. Keep it all. That sensitivity data allows the microphone to actually be used as a semi decent SPL meter.

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Thanks! I'll fix that!
I'm going to pic dump my helix settings and see if anyone has any input.
Here's my setup:
Toyota Tundra Crewmax
Factory Stereo
JL Fix86
Helix Pro Mk2
2 JL HD9005
Front Doors: Audio frog G60S (active) and GS25's
Rear Doors: JL C5-650 (passive)
Subs: 2 JL 10tw3d4 in a ported box
All doors and rear panel is sound deadened. Door speakers have foam cups with furniture stuffing in them, and speed rings stuck to the front of the speakers.

I'm using an rca splitter to split the SW signal from the helix and going to both the 5ch amps s/w inputs, i'm not sure what i should do with the IO for the SW channel.

IO
Attachment 15135

Front Highs
Attachment 15136

Front Mids
Attachment 15137

Front Lows
Attachment 15138

Rear Full
Attachment 15139

Subs
Attachment 15140

Why the Fix 86?

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Originally Posted by dobslob

Why the Fix 86?

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I had it installed when the system was just a single HD900/5 two sets of components and the subs. A shop that i bought all my equipment from that specializes in tundra stereos, said to keep it as a pre-amp. From what i've heard, it does a good job at flattening the factory stereo's sound curve.

Looks like a good start. Plenty of threads on here though discussing electrical crossovers vs acoustic crossovers so read up on those.

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Looks like a good start. Plenty of threads on here though discussing electrical crossovers vs acoustic crossovers so read up on those.

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Thanks! I'm trying to absorb as much info as i can. This is the first time i've used a real DSP.

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Originally Posted by danimal86

Thanks! I'm trying to absorb as much info as i can. This is the first time i've used a real DSP.

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You mean one that you have easier control over. Most DSP's use only a couple of different actual chips. The company that implements (Helix, minidsp, rockford, jl, Kicker, Ford, GM, Toyota, etc) just allow for varying degrees of user control. All have very similar capabilities though. And yes, even OEM's use those same chips, but they just usually give you basic bass, mid, treble and fader controls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

You mean one that you have easier control over. Most DSP's use only a couple of different actual chips. The company that implements (Helix, minidsp, rockford, jl, Kicker, Ford, GM, Toyota, etc) just allow for varying degrees of user control. All have very similar capabilities though. And yes, even OEM's use those same chips, but they just usually give you basic bass, mid, treble and fader controls.

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Thats what i meant by a real dsp. I guess i should have said a more in depth dsp.

Im want to figure out why my subs dont seems like they are quite putting out enough bass. When a good song comes on and i really want to thump it, it just seems like its not all there. I've got the amps set so they should be outputting the max rms for the subs, and if i want it to really thump, i'd have the bass knob all the way up on the URC-3 and i feel like it should be more. Any thoughts on what i can do. Should i just start adjusting the gain on the helix for the SW?

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Originally Posted by danimal86

Thats what i meant by a real dsp. I guess i should have said a more in depth dsp.

Im want to figure out why my subs dont seems like they are quite putting out enough bass. When a good song comes on and i really want to thump it, it just seems like its not all there. I've got the amps set so they should be outputting the max rms for the subs, and if i want it to really thump, i'd have the bass knob all the way up on the URC-3 and i feel like it should be more. Any thoughts on what i can do. Should i just start adjusting the gain on the helix for the SW?

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Most likely a phase issue or you don't have a target issue. You should start by learning how to measure your system and use Justin Zazzi's REW tuning companion to hit your target curve or put one into the Helix RTA and make sure you are hitting your targets.

A great source for starting is using the Audiofrog Tuning Guide. Start there. Follow it step by step and don't change a thing about the steps or include anything else into it. Tune your system using just that guide. Then, and only once you fully understand what that guide is doing and how it works, go farther down the rabbit hole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Most likely a phase issue or you don't have a target issue. You should start by learning how to measure your system and use Justin Zazzi's REW tuning companion to hit your target curve or put one into the Helix RTA and make sure you are hitting your targets.

A great source for starting is using the Audiofrog Tuning Guide. Start there. Follow it step by step and don't change a thing about the steps or include anything else into it. Tune your system using just that guide. Then, and only once you fully understand what that guide is doing and how it works, go farther down the rabbit hole.

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Will do! I read through that guide a while back (before i installed everything). Sounds like i need to go back through it again step by step.
That Justin Zazzi's REW Tuning Companion is super cool!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

Will do! I read through that guide a while back (before i installed everything). Sounds like i need to go back through it again step by step.
That Justin Zazzi's REW Tuning Companion is super cool!

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Yes, that can generate your target curves that Andy says to use in the guide. It isn't changing any part of his process, just giving a little more detailed target curve.

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Yes, that can generate your target curves that Andy says to use in the guide. It isn't changing any part of his process, just giving a little more detailed target curve.

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So i re-downloaded the AudioFrog guide, and got up to the point where i need to figure out the target sound curve and stopped. I'm starting to fill in the info on Jazzi's companion, for the values for the SW (might be a dumb question), but should i just use values for a single subwoofer? I'm running two in a ported enclosure (there is a divider in the box to keep each sub separate from each other).

Its storming like a mofo right now, so not going to attempt to hook up the microphone until it settles down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

So i re-downloaded the AudioFrog guide, and got up to the point where i need to figure out the target sound curve and stopped. I'm starting to fill in the info on Jazzi's companion, for the values for the SW (might be a dumb question), but should i just use values for a single subwoofer? I'm running two in a ported enclosure (there is a divider in the box to keep each sub separate from each other).

Its storming like a mofo right now, so not going to attempt to hook up the microphone until it settles down.

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You will want all similar speakers matching the target curve if that is what you mean. Doesn't matter how many you have, you could have 100 subs, they will still all need to hit that same target curve.

If you mean actually tuning your subs, Sub frequencies can be tuned together, really up to the transition (Schroeder) frequency could be. I normally just link my subs and sometimes even link my midwoofers in my 3 way just to see what it sounds like. Honestly I can't tell that much of a difference even with the midwoofers.

I got the idea for linking midwoofers from ErinH. I wouldn't suggest that for a 2 way as the woofers will play too high, but mine only play up to 350hz and the transition frequency is usually right around 300hz of most cars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

You will want all similar speakers matching the target curve if that is what you mean. Doesn't matter how many you have, you could have 100 subs, they will still all need to hit that same target curve.

If you mean actually tuning your subs, Sub frequencies can be tuned together, really up to the transition (Schroeder) frequency could be. I normally just link my subs (sometimes even link my midwoofers in my 3 way just to see what it sounds like).

I got the idea for linking midwoofers from ErinH. I wouldn't suggest that for a 2 way as the woofers will play too high, but mine only play up to 350hz and the transition frequency is usually right around 300hz of most cars.

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i wasn't sure about the "amplifier power available" on Jazzi's sheet. Each sub is powered off its own amplifier (well, the mono ch of a 5ch amp), so not sure if i should use the power values for 1 amp or both combined.

just for ref, i'm running: Audiofrog G60S (active) with Audiofrog GS25 (active) in the front, JL C5-650 (passive) in the rear, and 2 JL 10tw3d4's in a ported box. All being powered by 2 JL HD900/5's and the Helix Pro MK2. I've got the SW output on the helix split and goes to each amp.

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Originally Posted by danimal86

i wasn't sure about the "amplifier power available" on Jazzi's sheet. Each sub is powered off its own amplifier (well, the mono ch of a 5ch amp), so not sure if i should use the power values for 1 amp or both combined.

just for ref, i'm running: Audiofrog G60S (active) with Audiofrog GS25 (active) in the front, JL C5-650 (passive) in the rear, and 2 JL 10tw3d4's in a ported box. All being powered by 2 JL HD900/5's and the Helix Pro MK2. I've got the SW output on the helix split and goes to each amp.

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You can set whatever crossover frequency you want, that calculation just gives you basically the minimum you should ever set based on T/S parameters, which change as soon as you put anything inside of any container. I wouldn't worry too much about using that.

Set your sub to midwoofer crossover about 80hz-100hz. Set your midwoofer to gs25 around 350-400hz. 350-400hz because that is about 2x the fs of the gs25 and your gs60's will have no problem playing up to that. I'd personally set it at 400hz.

So in Justin's 2 way crossover sheet

sub 0-80hz

Midbass 80-400

Tweeter 400

Edit* You still want your subs to play to 20hz, but make sure to set protection on them since they are ported in the dsp as a subsonic filter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

You can set whatever crossover frequency you want, that calculation just gives you basically the minimum you should ever set based on T/S parameters, which change as soon as you put anything inside of any container. I wouldn't worry too much about using that.

Set your sub to midwoofer crossover about 80hz-100hz. Set your midwoofer to gs25 around 350-400hz. 350-400hz because that is about 2x the fs of the gs25 and your gs60's will have no problem playing up to that. I'd personally set it at 400hz.

So in Justin's 2 way crossover sheet

sub 0-80hz

Midbass 80-400

Tweeter 400

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Thanks!
So i should use the 2 way curves tab not the 3 way?

Here's what i've got so far:
SW:
Attachment 15141

2way:
Attachment 15142

3way
Attachment 15143

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Originally Posted by danimal86

Thanks!
So i should use the 2 way curves tab not the 3 way?

Here's what i've got so far:
SW:
Attachment 15141

2way:
Attachment 15142

3way
Attachment 15143

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You only have 2 speakers up front right? The gs60 and gs25? You don't have a 3 way so don't use that, you have a 2 way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

You only have 2 speakers up front right? The gs60 and gs25? You don't have a 3 way so don't use that, you have a 2 way.

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Sorry, i should have mentioned that. the G60S (not the gs60) are a passive component set that i ditched the passive crossovers and went active with them and added the 2.5" gs25 to them for a 3-way (giggity)
i reached out to audiofrog and asked them if it would work, or if i should just sell the G60S's and get separates GS or GB series and he said it would be fine to do it.

Ah in that case,

The above still applies

sub 0-80hz

Midbass 80-400

Midrange 400-3000 (2x fs of tweeter = 3000hz)

Tweeter 3000hz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Ah in that case,

The above still applies

sub 0-80hz

Midbass 80-400

Midrange 400-3000 (2x fs of tweeter = 3000hz)

Tweeter 3000hz

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Thanks!!!! Once this storm passes, i'll be ready to throw the mic in and tune this sucker!

Cool. Tune with it like that first. Then listen to it for a while. Once you have listened you can start making changes based on what you hear (or don't hear).


A good way to practice this if you have a windows computer or older mac that can run 10.5 programs. A word of caution though, once you learn how to listen...you can't unlearn so you have to be able to forgo issues you hear and still enjoy music for music.

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Cool. Tune with it like that first. Then listen to it for a while. Once you have listened you can start making changes based on what you hear (or don't hear).


A good way to practice this if you have a windows computer or older mac that can run 10.5 programs. A word of caution though, once you learn how to listen...you can't unlearn so you have to be able to forgo issues you hear and still enjoy music for music.

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

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Dang, i dont have any older pc's anymore. I'll see if i can figure out how to make it work.
I've actually worried about that last part. I dont want to obsess about it so much so that i can't enjoy music anymore.

I loaded up my helix profile and looked back at what values Andy from Audiofrog gave me for a starting crossover point, i'm wondering if i should use those or the ones you gave.

Andy's:
Sub 0-60 (i think i'll have to use 80 for jazzi's spreadsheet)
Midbass 80-350
Midrange 350-3500
Tweeters 3500

They are close, just shifted 500hz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

I loaded up my helix profile and looked back at what values Andy from Audiofrog gave me for a starting crossover point, i'm wondering if i should use those or the ones you gave.

Andy's:
Sub 0-60 (i think i'll have to use 80 for jazzi's spreadsheet)
Midbass 80-350
Midrange 350-3500
Tweeters 3500

They are close, just shifted 500hz

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Tomatoes tomatoes. Andy's sub 0-60 in the dsp helps with hitting the target curve better of 80hz crossover for the sub to midbass. So in Justin's spreadsheet you will still want to put 80hz for the sub.

Justin's spreadsheet are acoustical crossover targets, the actual dsp settings will vary.

Example: You want an acoustical 80hz LR 24db/oct crossover for your sub to woofer to keep phase as right as possible between them. That might mean you need to set a 50hz dsp setting to achieve that target curve. Or a Butterworth 12db/oct dsp setting, or whatever works best to hit that target slope prior to any eq.

Do this for all speakers. I spend the most time doing this when tuning, trying out different crossover types and slopes until it matches the best. Some speakers don't even need any EQ after that. My woofers in my truck just have crossover setting set and like 1 band of EQ to get it to match the curve.

This was my wifes car, It is an 80hz LR 24db/oct crossover between sub and woofer and 2500hz LR 24db/oct between my woofer and tweeter (2 way setup) for acoustical in the listening position.. NONE of these in the dsp are set to 80hz/2500hz and I do not believe any of them in the dsp are set to 24db/oct either. They are are mix of slopes and even some random crossover style, butterworth, linkwitz or whatever else fit the best to get the acoustical response.

Attachment 15145

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Tomatoes tomatoes. Andy's sub 0-60 in the dsp helps with hitting the target curve better of 80hz crossover for the sub to midbass. So in Justin's spreadsheet you will still want to put 80hz for the sub.

Justin's spreadsheet are acoustical crossover targets, the actual dsp settings will vary.

Example: You want an acoustical 80hz LR 24db/oct crossover for your sub to woofer to keep phase as right as possible between them. That might mean you need to set a 50hz dsp setting to achieve that target curve. Or a Butterworth 12db/oct dsp setting, or whatever works best to hit that target slope prior to any eq.

Do this for all speakers. I spend the most time doing this when tuning, trying out different crossover types and slopes until it matches the best. Some speakers don't even need any EQ after that. My woofers in my truck just have crossover setting set and like 1 band of EQ to get it to match the curve.

This was my wifes car, It is an 80hz LR 24db/oct crossover between sub and woofer and 2500hz LR 24db/oct between my woofer and tweeter (2 way setup) for acoustical in the listening position.. NONE of these in the dsp are set to 80hz/2500hz and I do not believe any of them in the dsp are set to 24db/oct either. They are are mix of slopes and even some random crossover style, butterworth, linkwitz or whatever else fit the best to get the acoustical response.

Attachment 15145

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thats really interesting. It sounds like its going to be a lot more of an iterative process than i thought it would be.

So, just to get the basic idea of how to approach it:
Setup rew with mic calibration
load target curve
isolate each speaker and play mono pink noise and adjust to match curve and record
do over with all the other speakers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

thats really interesting. It sounds like its going to be a lot more of an iterative process than i thought it would be.

So, just to get the basic idea of how to approach it:
Setup rew with mic calibration
load target curve
isolate each speaker and play mono pink noise and adjust to match curve and record
do over with all the other speakers.

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Exactly. Match all of the curve the best you can starting with crossover and then applying as minimal eq as possible.

You see what my graphs look like above, they are no where near "perfect" with peaks and dips. This is the best sound in my wife's car yet. Even she said that. I went for more perfect before and it never sounds as good, you eq the life out of things that way. I think her woofers have like 6 to 7 bands of eq after getting the crossover as best as possible and the tweeters are like 2 bands after crossover. My truck has like 2-4 bands on every driver but it is a 3 way with better equipment, placement, and aiming.

It is iterative at first for sure. Once you get to a point, it only becomes iterative if you learn something new or get new gear constantly. But most don't need new gear, they need to learn to use the tools better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

Exactly. Match all of the curve the best you can starting with crossover and then applying as minimal eq as possible.

You see what my graphs look like above, they are no where near "perfect" with peaks and dips. This is the best sound in my wife's car yet. Even she said that. I went for more perfect before and it never sounds as good, you eq the life out of things that way. I think her woofers have like 6 to 7 bands of eq after getting the crossover as best as possible and the tweeters are like 2 bands after crossover. My truck has like 2-4 bands on every driver but it is a 3 way with better equipment, placement, and aiming.

It is iterative at first for sure. Once you get to a point, it only becomes iterative if you learn something new or get new gear constantly. But most don't need new gear, they need to learn to use the tools better.

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Man i cant wait to get out there and start messing around with them. Thanks for your help, i feel like i'm starting to understand the process a lot better now, i was ready to take it to a local shop or have someone do a remote tune, but i feel like i can get it licked myself.

Do you measure, stop, adjust band, measure, stop.....or do you keep the pink noise going, and adjust without stopping anything? Also, does it matter if i'm in the truck while i'm doing the adjusting?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

Man i cant wait to get out there and start messing around with them. Thanks for your help, i feel like i'm starting to understand the process a lot better now, i was ready to take it to a local shop or have someone do a remote tune, but i feel like i can get it licked myself.

Do you measure, stop, adjust band, measure, stop.....or do you keep the pink noise going, and adjust without stopping anything? Also, does it matter if i'm in the truck while i'm doing the adjusting?

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I measure, turn off the noise (because I don't want to sit there and listen to it even with my 30db hearing protection). I then use REW's EQ function and try to get what I want with as few of bands as possible.


I've found I get the best results by reclining drivers seat as much as possible and same with passenger and then sitting in the back with my microphone on a 1x1 board to move it around the listening position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jdunk54nl

I measure, turn off the noise (because I don't want to sit there and listen to it even with my 30db hearing protection). I then use REW's EQ function and try to get what I want with as few of bands as possible.


I've found I get the best results by reclining drivers seat as much as possible and same with passenger and then sitting in the back with my microphone on a 1x1 board to move it around the listening position.

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So that was another question i had about how loud to play the pink noise....sounds like its gonna need to be cranked up pretty good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danimal86

So that was another question i had about how loud to play the pink noise....sounds like its gonna need to be cranked up pretty good.

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I use a volume loud enough to get good results and above noise floor. I don't blare it. I just find pink noise annoying and also value my hearing so I wear ear protection a lot these days.