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Just curious what sequence do you guys go thru when tuning a car system. Possible choices of items:
1. Gains
2 Level
3. Crosovver points and slopes
4. Time Alignment
5. EQ
6. Other items
These are not written in any specific order, just a general list.
For me its gone like this
Gains via DMM with pink noise
Crossovers
RTA
EQ
TA
EQ to fine tune
SAVE!!!
1. Basic crossover
2. Basic gains
3. Basic eq for tonality
4. Revisit crossovers
5. Revisit gains
6. Levels and t/a......over and over and over and over......looking for that "sound"
7. Revisit eq for tonality
8. Revisit crossovers for fine tuning, experimentation
9. Eq for stage.....
10. Revisit eq for tonality
Then repeat over and fucking over and over.......evidently this never stops, even when it sounds amazing......I can't stop......wtf, is this normal?
1. Gain structure, level matching
2. RTA left then right to help determine crossover points. I use my xo points to get the response as flat as possible before I touch an eq.
3. Set crossover points
4. Use RTA to set parametric eq on each individual channel
5. Set time alignment
6. Check for phase/polarity cancelation
7. Use RTA to set left/right parametric eq
8. Use graphic eq to dial in tonality and listener preference.
Sent from my Springfield XD with love!
Do you guys use gain/level to set center first or use T/A to set center first ?
In step 6 my post above I said I go back and forth many times on that........for me there's always a spot in the t/a where speakers just pop into sync with each other......I guess it's phase...... once I find that spot with the natural cohesion between my speakers, then I adjust the levels accordingly. Of course I always start with the left down a couple dbs depending on speaker location and plds.......
I use t/a.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulD
Ideally if you level match properly center will resolve right where it should be once t/a is dialed in.
Sent from my Springfield XD with love!
Arbitrary crossover points for safe use and common sense
Gains by ear
TA with SMAART
Touch up gains
go back to crossover
touch up gains
If something is bugging me and I can't point it out look at SMAART for RTA
Go back to gains and crossover
over an over and over
then EQ, cut only.
How do you do your TA with SMAART? I'm currently doing mine by ear, first do polarity on left, then right then center mids then set tweeter to same delay. Seems to work but wouldn't mind a more scientific way.Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
Here's another good question, are all your XOs at the same frequency on both sides or do you use different frequencies between drivers on the left and right for tuning i.e. mid to tweet @ 2k on both sides or let's say 1.9k on left and 2.1k on right just for example.
I've seen several people say they run different crossover points and/or slopes on different sides. I have never tried this, but have wondered what these off balance methods are targeting. If I knew what they used these methods for, I might play with it myself.....
How far off axis is your left mid vs right? I don't even pretend to understand all this, but that is what they are trying to adjust for.Quote:
Originally Posted by claydo
I cross my midbass/fullrange at 300 hz. My left midbass is way further off axis than my right. It causes a drop in output starting below 300hz. So by crossing my left side midbass/full range at 250 I can compensate for that lack of output. All of this is hard to see without an RTA plot.
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I have never tried to use different points or slopes based on L/R.
The way the manual tells you to. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by bose301s
You can't do TA by ear and get accurate results....
But you sure can guess the height of a tree by looking at it.
from 2010 on DIYMA
Quote:
Smaart 6, Time Alignment
Is it possible to measure what settings to use for time alignment using Smaart 6? I have a P880PRS headunit and would love to do some tweaking to the time alignment. I also noticed a phase section in the program, what does that do? Can it detect what phase the speakers are playing in so I can adjust the phasing too?
Thanks.
Quote:
Looking at it Yes. It won't give exact phase, but you can tell if you should invert phase on a specific speaker. The key is to run the speakers full range when setting it.
Look for the initial spike, if up it is in phase at the listening position, if down it is out of phase and you should flip it. Also, for time alignment you are trying to align the spikes of all of the speakers. Don't worry about the sub, it usually isn't affected by TA and is usually the furthest speaker away and the speaker you align the others to.
Just be careful when doing this, you can easily blow your tweeters with too hot of a signal using MLS signals.
Quote:
t/a affects phase.
Therefore, t/a will have an effect on the phase of the sub.
However, the reason most don't use t/a is simply because the sub is typically the furthest driver away from you and most use t/a only to 'push' the drivers closest to you further away to where the perceived arrival time is equal to that of the sub.
When you break the t/a aspect down to phase, then you really start reaping the benefit of time alignment.
Just found a copy of smaart on the webzz.. Gonna check it later tonight if and how it works... if it works I'll look if I can share it with y'all :D
EDIT: It works!! smaart 6
PM for info..
Now ya need a stereo usb card with at least one channel of flat mic pre and a special cable I can tell you how to make.
I have a Tascam US-122mkII USB pre-amp and a behringer ecm8000 micQuote:
Originally Posted by chad
You mean for reference? Is it very special? :P
I also have another measurment-mic with a panasonic capsule, very flat response in an alu-tube, with pre-amp that can be connected to the line-in of a computer.. can this be accurate for arrival time setting? http://www.audiosystem-europe.com/soundE.html
Smaart is closed loop. One channel gets the mic the other channel gets EXACTLY what you are sending the system... flipping on the monitoring for that channel is not enough, you have to loop an output to an input at the same time you send it to the system.
Ok like stereo out, lch to System, Rch to input 2 of my soundcard? And input 1 is the mic correct?
Or output split, lch to system and input 2 as input 1 is the mic
Sent from my Lumia 920 using Tapatalk
I think that's the same way REW does it.
Sent from my Springfield XD with love!
I do left channel mic then left channel out to left channel in to system (mono signal) My cable is 2X 1/4 inch jacks for the loop and a 1/8" female with the tip and ring wired together for mono.Quote:
Originally Posted by WOOSEY
Can you just wire both "hot" l+r signals together to get mono?Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
Why?
Because you mentioned the tip and ring wired together... But now I get it... Left and right on the system input get the same mono signal...
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Yup!
C Music way of tuning -
No real time analyzer is used and This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning.Quote:
There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.
1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.
2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.
3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.
4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.
5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.
6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.
7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.
8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.
9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.
10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.
11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.
12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.
13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.
14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.
15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage.
This step will audibly move your stage around -Quote:
13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best.
1. crossovers (to keep from blowing shit up because they weren't set first;))
2. gains
3. levels with rta for each speaker pair to set the stage for l/r eq
4. l/r eq
5. t/a for each pair of drivers
6. t/a in delta so everything sounds like a pair of invisible point source speakers
7. set levels for each pair as a pair
8. tonality tweaks
That order of operations seems pretty solid. I do it in a slightly different order, but I don't really know what the heck I am doing most of the time.
I don't know what I'm doing either in the grand scheme of things. I just know what works for me. Need to learn how to use Jazzi's tool for rew to tune each driver to a target curve instead of just trying to make each pair identical twins and then fighting to get the curve listenable after the fact. Seems like a waste of mono eq to fix what could have been fixed in the first place with the help of a target curve.