-
8 Attachment(s)
TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
So, technically, I have everything installed already but I’m planning a rather large tear down & rebuild. The current equipment list is as follows:
Source: Kenwood Excelon DDX-395
DSP: PPI DCX-730 (being replaced)
Amps: Soundstream TN4.900D x2 These are the nice version, before they cheaped out & redesigned them.
Front stage: PPI 3-way components (The ones with the AMT tweeters)
Sub: PPI Phantom 15D2 IB
As mentioned earlier, everything is already in but just about everything is getting redone. I’m pleased with the a-pillars I made but there are little things that bother me & I’m going to try to put them a little more on-axis. The DSP was limited as far as outputs (6) so the DSP handled the front stage and the source handled the sub xover & time delay which I believe hindered my ability to get the sub up front no matter how hard I tried. So that’s getting replaced with a Dayton 408 which will let me control everything from one unit.
The trunk is where I really wanted to make the major changes. I was never really pleased with the cosmetics of the whole thing. The cutout diameter listed in the sub manual turned out to be off so the hole was too big and I had to hodgepodge the baffle together. Honestly, it worked and sounded good but it looked... meh. To me anyway. I never did clean up the wiring under the rack because I knew a redo was in the plans. Then I had an RCA cable for my mids take a dump so it was time to start over.
There are some parts of the original install that I didn’t take pics of, like the front woofers & head unit, so as I go along I’ll snap some and post them up. So now I guess it’s time for pics...
The car:
Attachment 7644
Some sound deadening:
Attachment 7645Attachment 7646Attachment 7647
The entire floor was done in Killmat as well as the rear deck, which I didn’t get pics of. And honestly the rear cover is a PITA to get off so I may never get a pic of it.
Front pillars:
Attachment 7648Attachment 7649
Amp rack:
Attachment 7650
Here you can see the temporary cheapy red/white RCAs I had to use to actually have mids for my daily commute.
Trunk side:
Attachment 7651
I’ll try to get a better pic when it’s all done.
So that was where I started this morning. New updates to follow.
-
4 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
So this morning the rebuild commenced. I remounted the circuit breaker under the hood using some ABS and a stud/nut on the shock tower that wasnt being used. It looks like it may have been an option for a ground cable...?
Attachment 7652
I wanted to tuck the amps away as much as possible so I went for the space behind/under the rear seat, underneath where the amps previously were.
Attachment 7653Attachment 7654
Nothing is mounted yet as I was just trying to get an idea on placement and spacing. You can also see the sub baffle in the second pic.
And here’s the trunk side:
Attachment 7655
You can also see the XTC “baffles” on the OEM speakers to seal them off from the sub waves. I was going to pull the speakers but after finding out how difficult it was to get the cover off I didn’t want to have to do it again to replace the speakers if I ever sold the car. They actually work really well. No more cones vibrating front the sub so... worth it.
That’s all the further I got today. It doesn’t seem like much but it also takes a bit to pull all that crap out too. It also starts to get dark earlier now so that didn’t help any. So I guess my 30min each way commute will be a little quieter this week with no tunes. Until next time...
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Looking forward to the next update and hopefully, seeing the finished project sometime next year.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Very nicely done and I can’t wait to stop modding my vehicle so I can truly direct the funds to the audio aspect.
-
4 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Progress... the amp rack is complete, and amps & processor are mounted and it’s all ready to go in.
Attachment 7732
The sub baffle is also done and ready to be mounted.
Attachment 7733Attachment 7735Attachment 7734
For some reason the pictures always make the carpet a few shades off but in person it’s darn near identical. So this weekend will entail mounting the sub, wiring everything up, setting the crossovers and rough time delay. The finish line is in sight. Thanksgiving weekend I’ll tear into the a-pillars. Since I’m off Friday that gives me about 3.5 days to get them done.
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
The baffle is now in. The sub is in. The amp rack is in. Wires are run (except sub) but nothing is connected yet. I have to take a bit of a break to watch my Nittany Lions try to pull off the upset against a very impressive OSU team. Work will commence after the game. We Are...!!Attachment 7795Attachment 7796
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Lovin the IB ! How're you likin the AMT tweeters and mids firing across @ each other ?
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Queef
Lovin the IB ! How're you likin the AMT tweeters and mids firing across @ each other ?
I absolutely love the AMT tweets. They sound real good firing across but I’ve noticed a slight drop off in the very high end aimed across. I’ve been able to compensate a bit with some EQ, but my plan is to move them more towards a cross-firing setup to get more of the “sparkle” back.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Well... the a-pillars will be on hold for a bit. I got everything wired up & did a quick tune. Basically, I input the same numbers I had in the old processor and everything sounds WAY better. I ended up reducing the high end on the tweeters because they were overwhelming & I also lowered the crossover point between the sub/midbass from 80 to 65 which seemed to bring the bass more up front. Not perfect but a DEFINITE improvement. All I have to do is make the trim panel to cover the amps and add some LEDs for some bling and I’ll be set for the rear. I will now have to do some more deadening to the door panels as I now have a slight buzz every now & then (obviously from the lower xover point on the door woofers). Totally worth it to get more bass up front and they don’t really seem to have any issue handling it even at relatively high volumes. I’ll post up final pics after completion this weekend... hopefully.
-
5 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
The trunk portion is now all buttoned up & complete. I’ve been tweaking here and there and can say, without a doubt, this is the best my car has sounded by FAR! I will also say that it’s not easy to do this stuff when it’s not even 40*. But... it’s done... here it is.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Todd Very Sweet ! ! :beer:
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I’m bringing this back from the dead so I don’t have to go digging through all the pages to find it.
I just picked up another set of a-pillar panels and some new pods are being designed. The intent is to get them more on axis. I also really don’t like big bulbous pods so I’m hoping I can actually recess the drivers a bit too while I’m at it.
This may move a little slowly as my new living situation will hinder my ability to work in addition to cold temps AND baseball practices for 3hrs every Saturday afternoon. We downsized into a townhouse instead of the house we used to have so I have to be a bit more considerate of my new neighbors who are a LOT closer than I’m used to. I’m excited to do some work. Stay tuned.
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
With the grille removed I can now tell for sure why the left side of my stage was a bit scrunched compared to the right being out beyond my mirror.
Attachment 15175
I’m not sure if I never noticed how far back the driver sat from the grille or maybe I didn’t really care & then promptly forgot about it... either way the new ones should greatly improve things. I have the general placement down and marked for cutting but my progress for today has been slowed as I’m currently in the process of being snowed in with a forecasted potential 14-20” of snow. I was going to cut them up today but I think I’ll wait until one of the next few days over my lunch break or next weekend. My garage is small and I don’t really want plastic shavings getting on my Vette... or snow.
Attachment 15176
I’ve now tried 3 different times and these pictures keep posting up sideways. For some reason they’re rotated to the left 90 degrees from the way they are in my phone. It’s kind of a pain to break my laptop out for a quick update but if anyone knows if it’s a phone thing that can be solved by using my laptop let me know and I’ll start using the computer so people don’t have to break their necks for a few photos.
Anyhow... the plan is to have the bottom of the mid (hopefully) flush with the pillar and recess the top as far as possible to get them angled more towards the middle of the car. I am willing to extend the bottom out a bit in order to get the angle right. Then it’s just a matter of trimming out enough material from the pillar for a clear path for the tweeter.
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
The temps have managed to break into the 50s... we even got to mid 60s today so I managed to get some work done. Yesterday was spent making a makeshift workbench since I have no room for a full-size one at my new house. And today was spent cutting up the new mid/tweet baffles. Tomorrow will be cutting up the pillars and determining the angles.
Attachment 15340
Sunday I have to detail a car for a friend and he offered to glass my pillars while I’m doing that... I love trade labor. While I have the ability to do fiberglass work I don’t particularly enjoy it so I jumped at the offer. So... with any luck I should have new pillars (minus covering) by middle of next week.
I also did a thing this past weekend. The order is in & as soon as Crutchfield gets them in stock I’ll have a new head unit to install.
Attachment 15341
Until next time...
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Hope to see you at Apicella's in NY in April.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I just may have to make the trip. What’s the date(s)?
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheTodd
I just may have to make the trip. What’s the date(s)?
April 17
-
3 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Well... it’ll take a bit longer to get the pillars done. We decided to schedule a baseball practice for tomorrow so that’ll take the place of the detail/fiberglass day... meh. I did manage to make some progress today though. A little test fit...
Attachment 15354
That gave me an idea of how much more I needed to trim away to fully clear the tweeter. So now I have both set up and I’ll spend some time tomorrow trying to make it not look like a beaver gnawed on my pillars before starting the fiberglassing.
Attachment 15355
Also, while checking on the availability of my new head unit yesterday I noticed an “open box” option that was not available before. After a quick call to Crutchfield & reassurance that the unit was in “like new” condition, I saved $60 and it was shipped out immediately. So it arrived today while I was at baseball practice. I can’t wait to get this bad boy installed!
Attachment 15356
-
3 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I got a little more progress made over the last week. They’re beginning to take shape...
Attachment 15378
I have to coach my kid’s baseball team in a tournament next weekend so the previously mentioned glass/detail weekend will be 4/3. Until then I’ll make some slow progress on getting the new head unit in. The only dash kits available for my car are black or silver. Unfortunately my dash is more gray. I managed to find paint that’s a VERY close match when I put my current unit in so I ordered the black kit from Crutchfield along with the deck and did a little paint work. It probably won’t even be visible with the floating 10” display but I’ll know so it got painted anyway.
Attachment 15379Attachment 15380
Hopefully I can get some wiring done this week and with some luck get it in before too long. It’s really not helping much that I’m revamping the install in my Corvette too. Ugh! Too much stuff to do and so little time.
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Aaaand.....
. Attachment 15403
It’s IN!! All I can say is WOW! It’s a BIG improvement over my previous Excelon. I don’t know whether it’s the difference in Excelon to Excelon Reference or the 3 or 4 year difference in production but sonically it’s on a whole new level. I had a few apprehensions with dropping $1200 but it was WELL worth it. Now I just need to get the new pillars done. The other plus would be the load time of my USB drive. I have about 3000 songs or so and the 395 would take about 30-45 seconds to start playing at turn on and this thing loads & plays almost instantly.
-
7 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Beautiful weather today so I got some work done. I had been running the OEM woofers in the doors before because the PPI drivers were a tad too deep and were hitting the window. After some more careful measurements and some new, taller mounting brackets I could make them fit especially if I used a couple layers of Kilmat to help seal & space them. So I started the attack...
Attachment 15501Attachment 15502Attachment 15503
I tore the crap out of my hands as you can see the blood all over the speaker bracket. While I was in there I put a layer of Kilmat on the exterior door skin even though they never really seemed to need it. The inside got done as well as the inside surface of the door panel.
Attachment 15504Attachment 15505
Of course it can’t ALL go smoothly... apparently the PPI drivers are THAT much bigger than the OEMs that the long-ass trunk release button won’t go all the way back in the door panel.
Attachment 15506Attachment 15507
So now the search is on for a new switch that’ll actually fit. The search is also on for some new amps... I managed to find some Series VIiI Hifonics amps that I’ve always wanted and after hearing one in my Corvette I’m trying to find a few more to put in this car. So far I have a Gemini (50x4) and next week I’m picking up a Thor (400x1 bridged for the sub). So now I’m on the hunt for either an Odin (75x2) or another Thor (125x2) for the woofers. This should get interesting. Until next time...
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I got the first layer of fiberglass done today, then decided to work on my corvette a bit while that dried. Then, while in the middle of THAT, our washer broke so today’s activities came to a halt so I can buy a new washer. A pic of what I got done... aka not much:
Attachment 15603
-
3 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Another small update... My new trunk release button came. It was oddly difficult to find a momentary switch with the dimensions to fit and NOT be chrome. So chrome it is. It’s not hideous but I’m not thrilled with it... but it DOES work so there’s that.
Attachment 15614Attachment 15615Attachment 15616
Now the dilemma on what to cover the pillars with... the same headliner material as my previous ones or maybe a dark brown suede... 🤔
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
More glass and some sealing/deadening today.
Attachment 15653Attachment 15654
Now it’s just a waiting game until everything is dry then it’s on to finishing & upholstery and install. I see light at the end of the tunnel.
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
All done and in...
Attachment 15668Attachment 15669
They’re a HUGE improvement sonically over the last ones. Cosmetically, well, I’m not going to win any installer of the year awards but I’m ok with how they look. It bothers my OCD a bit that they’re not symmetrical but these were the angles that sounded best and they’re really not THAT different. Now it just needs a good thorough tuning session and she’ll be all done.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I think they look great. Nice job.
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I’m baaaaack. I’ve been casually window shopping for some new amps lately. Not that I NEED new ones but if anyone else understands this particular situation it would be you guys. So I was looking at possibly some JL XDs… a 600/6 for the fronts and a 600/1 for the sub or possibly the Alpine 6ch R series with their matching mono. Then I started thinking about a set of JL HDs (900/5 & 600/4) but even used they’re bringing some crazy money. The difficult part of my setup is that the sub is D2 and with it being IB I didn’t want much more than about 500w. I have about 450 on it now and it’s perfect, so finding an amp to do 450-500 @ 4ohms is somewhat limited. Luckily Ian (naiku) just managed to get some new SI amps and I quite literally pounced on his dual Alpine setup. So we struck a deal and I now have what I think are perfect amps for a very reasonable price. I will run the PDX-F4 at 100x4 to the mids & tweeters and the PDX-V9 will run 200x2 & 500x1 to the sub. My current setup is roughly 140x6 to the fronts and 450 to the sub so powerwise it’s not too far off but I’m betting on the quality of the Alpines to be better than the current Soundstreams.
Also when I originally installed this setup I (shamefully) cheaped out and used CCA power & ground wire. Even though it’s going to be a MAJOR pain (the firewall is a HUGE hassle to navigate in this car) I decided it was in my best interest to also redo that with new OFC wire. So… while I was spending money I figured I’d get a new distro block and a crap load of flex loom as well.
Pic for fun…
Attachment 17158
So as soon as temps get a little warmer I’ll get started rebuilding a new amp rack. I also can’t decide on whether I want to wait until after Jason’s meet or not. I want the new stuff in but I REALLY want to get some input on my current setup to see if I’m on the right track being that I tuned it myself completely by ear. I think I’m close.
I also have a buddy of mine trying to see if he can get me a TWQ-88 from JL. He used to work there so he’s trying to see if he can score me a deal. If he can that’ll be one more thing to add in so I don’t want to go building things and then have to redo things for THAT. So it’ll be a little bit yet before any progress is made but I thought I’d provide the update as I’m kinda excited for some new toys.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheTodd
Not that I NEED new ones but if anyone else understands this particular situation it would be you guys.
Yes. Haha. I did not need new amps, but here we are!! Have fun running new power wire, as I said when I dropped the amps off, I hated every second of doing that in the Volvo, if you have some spare time before Jason's meet and want to get together, shoot me a text, but also, get the new stuff installed :-D
-
4 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Got a little work done today. Couldn’t get too into it since the temps didn’t get above 45 until noon-ish and it’s date night so I needed something I could get done in minimal time. Yet one more thing that should’ve been done from the get-go but I got lazy and all was good so I never bothered.
I’ll call it the big 2. I didn’t see a need to upgrade the battery to the engine as it was already substantial from the factory… it looks like 4ga so I left that one out. This was also my first time working with the braided loom so THAT was a learning experience.
Battery to chassis
Attachment 17162
Battery to the alternator
Attachment 17163
It kind of boogered up the loom a bit but I managed to squeeze it into the OEM boot
Attachment 17164
And she’s all buttoned back up
Attachment 17165
I’ll be redoing the mount for the circuit breaker next and make an attempt to run the new power cable. Tomorrow is supposed to be in the 70s so hopefully the rain will hold off long enough I can get more done. As previously stated the power wire is gonna be a PAIN as the firewall is actually 2 different layers. From the passenger compartment there’s a 13/16” hole, then about a 1 to 1-1/2” gap then another hole but the second hole is slightly offset from the other. I’m planning on attaching my 3’ zip tie to the end of the current power wire, pulling it through but not all the way, then taping it to my new wire and pulling it back through. And, of course, everything ALWAYS goes according to plan.
I now have a design in mind for the new amp rack so if the rain holds off I’ll get some new pieces cut. Until next time…
-
4 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
It doesn’t really seem like much but I managed to get the new power wire run (I already mentioned how much of a PITA it is) so that took me most of the day. I also redid the mount for the circuit breaker. Because of the way it was mounted before, the in/out were basically on the wrong sides which meant a bit of a cluster as the wire was doubled back on itself on both sides. While I like the fact that it sort of disappeared the way it was I like the more direct wire routing more and if the car ever needs serviced it’s a little more obvious to anyone that it should be disconnected.
I’m a little angry, though, that once I removed the old power wire I noticed it was in fact OFC. So it didn’t REALLY need replaced. Meh… too late now. I’m definitely NOT doing THAT again.
New mount/wiring
Attachment 17171Attachment 17172
I also got the mounting plates cut for the amps. They’re just a smidge smaller than the amps themselves as I’m planning to make floating mounts back-lit with LEDs. As long as temps stay up I should get more done next weekend.
Attachment 17173Attachment 17174
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
New DSP arrived today. If temperatures can get even into the mid-50s at some point I could start getting some more work done.
Attachment 17209
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Well, temps got into the 50s this but it rained all weekend so I got very little done… again. I did manage to mount the remote for the TWK today in a small storage pocket to the left of the steering wheel.
Attachment 17217Attachment 17218
Not sure why they’re posting sideways. I even rotated them and tried again and they still come up sideways. Anywho… you get the idea.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I should be getting all the new gear installed Monday. I’m meeting up with an old friend who’s a decent at fab work and utilizing his garage & skills.
It also looks like my LF midbass is leaving this world so I’ll see if I can throw something in there to get me by until after the NC meet. I’m planning to listen to as many different speakers as possible but I guess I need to decide whether to replace just the door woofers or get a whole new front stage. I have a few in mind if I get all new but I’m definitely not rushing into anything and am very open minded to new ideas.
-
3 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Woofer is definitely toast. This is the first time I’ve ever blown up a speaker. I pulled it out and discovered it had some rust on the terminal.
Attachment 17235
So I cleaned er all up and it seemed to work just fine. Then on the way to and from work today… nothing. So I disassembled yet again. I figured I’d solder the wires onto the tabs the tinsel leads are soldered to. I tested it again before adding solder and… nothing still. Push on the cone a bit and it plays, release cone… nothing. So it appears I have a dead spot on the coil.
So I broke out a pair of Dayton Classics I’ve had laying around.
Attachment 17236Attachment 17237
And we’re back up and running until I decide on my new speakers.
If anyone is actually following this and has ANY input as far as possible replacements, these are the sets I’m currently looking further into:
(In order of retail price high to low)
- Focal Flax 3-way - At $1000 this would be a BIG stretch to the budget but doable if worth it
- Stereo Integrity TM65/M3/M25 - $880 I’d rather do these than Flax unless Flax are worth the extra $$
- AudioFrog GS 60/25/10 - $870 and on the top of my budget (just wish I could afford the GB)
- Alpine Type X 2-way set with added 3” mid - $850
- Morel Virtus 603 - $800 I really like the looks of this set
- Focal Performance 3-way set - $550 I’ve heard these are similar to the PolyGlass which I’ve had & liked
If anyone has an option that I haven’t mentioned please fill me in. I’m open to try just about anything, but I’m fairly firm in wanting a 3-way. It’s also tough because I have just under 2.75” for woofer depth in my door so I’m somewhat limited for midbasses. If I replace just the woofers the SI & Audiofrog are the top of my list.
Enough rambling… hopefully my next post will be of my new amp/DSP install.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I would do the SI combo personally. I am running the m3s and they are very very good. Heard excellent things about the tms and the tweets
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
I'm hearing REALLY good things about those Alpine Type-X - considering a possible upgrade for myself to those in the future.
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
So I’m not thrilled with the way they’re mounted but I wanted to at least document that progress is being made…
Attachment 17245
The day ran too long and I needed it to be operational for the 1hr drive home so there’s a LOT of temporary in this one photo. More work is scheduled for this weekend. The Twk is just propped up & stuck to the sub magnet so it doesn’t flop around but that will lay flat when done. The wires will need a good tidy-up but that’ll wait for a likely different amp mount. I used heavy duty wall-mount speaker brackets for the amps mostly because of their adjustability. This way I could mount everything and then tilt/swivel to get the look just right… however they definitely weren’t meant for the constant vibration of a car and you can see in the picture they tend to droop down on the right no matter how many times I’ve tightened them.
I ran into another issue, which is why the day ran too long, and that is the amp configuration and sound. The sound of the Alpine/JL combo is fantastic! However, no matter what we did we could not get a solid center like I had with the Soundstream/Dayton. It is VERY left biased. I’m using the 5ch to run the sub + midbasses bridged because it allowed me to run/bridge into 2 channels using the selector switch and not Y cables. Problem… because Ch1 also feeds Ch3, and 2-4, the two midbasses are tied together internally. So I’m trying to delay Ch1 only (1/2 of L woofer signal) and it’s also delaying Ch3 (1/2 of R woofer signal) without delaying 2&4, the OTHER half of each speaker. I believe this is what’s dragging the image to the left, because I can’t truly delay the L woofer. The amp also gets REALLY hot REALLY quickly so new RCA cables are on the way with Y cables.
In addition to changing the mounts we’re going to do a small re-wire. Since they’re essentially the same power output (not counting the sub channel) the 5ch will now run 2 channels to R mid/tweet, one channel bridged to R door woofer and also sub. The 4ch will now do the same 2ch to L mid/tweet & one bridged to door woofer. This should give me true L/R separation.
Here’s hoping this weekend is a productive one. Updates to follow.
-
Re: TheTodd’s 2008 Malibu (re)build thread
Oh yeah… also… these Dayton woofers are no joke for a $25 speaker. I may not have good staging/imaging yet but tonally… this car sounds REALLY good. My opinion, but, it IS my car so my opinion counts. :D