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Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Does anyone have experience running/ installing a 2-way active setup that went from a tweeter in the corner dash location pointed up at the windshield to a wideband in the same location?
I currently have a pair of SB29RDNC tweets in this location which sound great. BUT, I noticed that tuning the woofers in the front lower door position (with a helix p six) is challenging with my legs and other structures/obstacles; plus the woofers are off axis which becomes more of an issue at higher frequencies.
Admittedly the off axis issues and beaming aren’t too bad as I run a set of alpine z15m (5.25”), but obstacles are still an issue.
I have a pair of Audiofrog GS25s that I could replace the tweeters with and instead of crossing them at 2kHz (as the tweets are now), I could cross the GS25s much lower at around 200-300 Hz. This could get me a large frequency range free of obstruction and up on the dash.
I imagine that I may lose a little top end sparkle with the GS25s, but with a good tune I wonder how noticeable it would be.
Anyone with experience doing or installing something like this with the GS25s, HAT L3SE, HAT unity, audible physics RAM 2, etc?
I am really interested in the benefits achieved by going to a wideband and moving so much of the frequency response up on the dash as opposed to down by my feet.
Or, would this be a big step backwards?
(I know...a 3-way would be better but I’m not interested in fabricating something for the midrange; really just looking to maximize things with the OEM locations)
Thanks!
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I went from a 1" tweeter in the sail panel to a 3" wideband in the back corner of the dashboard.
Phenomenal difference in a positive way. I love it.
Gear was Morel Hybrid Ovation 6" and 1"
I swapped the 1" tweeter for a 3" Hybrid Audio L3SE wideband driver.
Then I swapped the Morel 6" for a Peerless SLS 6"
Then I didn't change a thing in the past seven years.
Aiming the wideband driver was very important. I would spend lots of time moving around on the dash with some towels or tape or something and trying many positions and many aiming angles. Even with zero tuning it was very easy to find the best location. I do not notice a lack of sparkle in the highest frequencies.
You might not want to use the GB25 though. It might work, but it is not designed or intended as a wideband driver.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
That’s awesome, Justin. Glad you found a combo that you’ve been enjoying for 7! years. I hope to get to that point too :).
I have the GS25 (not the GB25) so I should be ok.
It’s awesome to hear that it made such a positive difference. I couldn’t help but think that it would, but was hoping to hear from people that did the same or similar - so thanks!
Thanks for the tip on positioning. I probably won’t have much wiggle room as I’ll be keeping it in the OEM dash location (which is tight) but I’ll see what I can do with a custom made baffle perhaps under the OEM grills.
Now the question will be if I keep the alpine z15m (a speaker based off the Scanspeak Revelator 15W) in the doors (which is 5.25”, Xmax 6.5mm, Fs 44) or go back to the Audiofrog GS690 (6x9”, xmax 5mm, Fs 58).
Both are pretty impressive. I’m thinking the GS690 might be a better choice, but the alpines sounds really good right now too...
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Not exactly what you did, but I did an install with a time-aligned array of 2" Tang Band full range speakers (even had tiny phase plugs) like 10 or 15 years ago, trying to avoid the need for tweeters.
It was those, and four 5.25" surprisingly capable midbass drivers, and a dual 8" sub in the rear.
The real purpose for the time-aligned array of the tiny speakers was to try to get from about 250hz up all the way, with no crossover points messing things up, trying to improve imaging. And from that perspective, it did work.
But realistically, those speakers only went up to about 10khz, and there's just no getting around that. In a corner location, firing up like you are, I'd expect some phasing interactions in two ways-
1) even tiny cone full-range speakers start to become directional at whatever frequency corresponds to their cone diameter. You'll be very off-axis, so they might even roll off before you reach 10khz.
2) the reflected sound imparts a 180 degree phase shift on the sound - so that stuff that rolls off WILL reflect so you might get it - but you won't be avoiding any of the ugliness or phase shifting of a crossover point. And I still think you won't get much at 10khz and up.
It's not a whole lot - but I bought a set of cheap Dayton domes just to use as super-tweeters (I ran them from 10hkz up I believe) and it just brought in that upper detail.
I'd do what I did-
Give it a go, no tweeter.
If you find some things missing - add one in your sail panels or somewhere easy, and cross it over high enough that it doesn't really impact your imaging anyway, to still get that benefit of your broader range driver.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Yeah, I'm going to give it a go with the GS25s and see if I can dial in a good tune (hopefully this weekend).
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I went from a 1” tweeter to a Celestion AN2775 3” wide band driver with decent success but in the end I went back to a tweeter, mainly the GB15, and I’m very satisfied with that. My issue was that the Celestion probably wasn’t the best choice and I was working with an off axis location with them firing up at the windshield. I also own that SB29 in another vehicle. It’s a great tweeter BTW. I think you’ll have good luck with the GS25 as it’s designed more for that purpose.
Tuning a two way as opposed to a three way is very tuff, especially with the midbass down low in the door and off axis. In my truck I left the two way tune as a DSP preset so I could quickly jump from three way to two way and the difference is astonishing really. The rainbow effect becomes clear once you are able to switch back and forth like that when using a small tweeter paired with a midbass. As Justin said, aiming a wideband driver becomes very important because of speaker beaming.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JCsAudio
Tuning a two way as opposed to a three way is very tuff, especially with the midbass down low in the door and off axis. In my truck I left the two way tune as a DSP preset so I could quickly jump from three way to two way and the difference is astonishing really. The rainbow effect becomes clear once you are able to switch back and forth like that when using a small tweeter paired with a midbass. As Justin said, aiming a wideband driver becomes very important because of speaker beaming.
Tuning a traditional 2 way is definitely hard to get around the rainbow effect, speaker choice really matters. You need a tweeter that can play as low as possible to mitigate it, a 6.5" that can play higher isn't going to help, you will still get beaming due to it being a 6.5".
I like the idea of a "wideband" and 6.5", or a 5" speaker and a 1" tweeter would be better, but then you need to focus on your subs to play a little higher.
I am actually debating about going wideband in my wife's SUV. Or 3 way....but then I'd have to buy another amp....I will probably go wideband and have Justin help me aim ;)
Fun chart from Andy's tuning guide showing frequency and beaming based on speaker size. Obviously green is good and red is bad.
Attachment 10790
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
Fun chart from Andy's tuning guide showing frequency and beaming based on speaker size. Obviously green is good and red is bad.
Attachment 10790
Really interesting that even a 1" dome tweeter suffers beaming for basically the whole 10khz-20khz top octave!
No wonder mass-less, dimension-less plasma tweeters exist... :lol:
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
So I installed the gs25 and did a rough tune because I couldn’t wait till the weekend. It sounded very noticeably different in a positive way. I was hearing details much more clearly that in my prior setup (I realize now) would get a bit muddied as it straddled the crossover point, or perhaps pulled lower toward the doors. Things are noticeably right on top of the dash with everything ~250 Hz and up.
My prior setup was a SB29RDNC and a 5.25” mid bass/midrange (alpine z15m) so I wasn’t running into issues with beaming (the combo really does sound great), but there was no getting around the difficulty of playing frequencies lower than 2k behind my leg in the front lower door panel. I’ m beginning to believe that for similar reasons why 3-way setups can sound amazing (with midrange and tweet above the dash), a good wideband can help a 2-way sound amazing.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
Tuning a traditional 2 way is definitely hard to get around the rainbow effect, speaker choice really matters. You need a tweeter that can play as low as possible to mitigate it, a 6.5" that can play higher isn't going to help, you will still get beaming due to it being a 6.5".
I like the idea of a "wideband" and 6.5", or a 5" speaker and a 1" tweeter would be better, but then you need to focus on your subs to play a little higher.
I am actually debating about going wideband in my wife's SUV. Or 3 way....but then I'd have to buy another amp....I will probably go wideband and have Justin help me aim ;)
Fun chart from Andy's tuning guide showing frequency and beaming based on speaker size. Obviously green is good and red is bad.
Attachment 10790
You can also see where a speaker starts beaming by looking at the frequency charts provided by the better manufacturers with on axis, 30 degrees, and 60 degrees off axis’s. You’ll see the frequency for each one start to diverge from each other at the point of beaming. Take this graph from the Scanspeak Classic 7” mid woofer for example. You can see it starts to diverge as low as 1000 Hz.
Attachment 10816
What many people don’t consider though are all the reflections you get in the tight small space of an automobile. Much of the information you hear is indirect sound as much as it is direct sound and if they don’t match, even when aimed on axis, it will be tough to get everything to sound right. When you LP a driver above it’s beaming point than the indirect sounds will start to become less in amplitude than the direct sounds at the listening position. Having the indirect sound be as close as the direct sound makes tuning easier. This is why using a three way and crossing each driver at or below its beaming point is the best method to use.
Can you be successful with a wide band driver, of course, but you’ll have to be real careful with driver aiming, and you may still not get the same top end sparkle you can get with a tweeter. If you want to use less than ideal factory speaker positions then you may have issues. I’ve seen enough members who went from a traditional two way, replace the tweeter with a wide band and be very excited at first, only to go back to a two way with traditional tweeter, or three way, including myself.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
For aiming my wideband speakers I went full-crazy and mathed it out.
The goal was to have the left and right speakers be the same angle to the driver's position, and also be installed symmetric in the vehicle. In the diagram I came up with, the left speaker is aimed in front of the listening position by some amount and the right speaker is aimed behind the listening position by some amount (the same amount actually).
Maybe this will help someone.
Attachment 10817
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
My understanding from learning from you all and Andy’s tuning guide is that the factory location pointing up at the windshield is one of the better locations for a wideband. If I’m understanding it correctly (and please correct me), if you were to take a wideband and aim it right on axis to you, you have the direct high frequencies but you lose a LOT of the immediate reflections at those high frequencies (because of beaming) that are occurring at the lower frequencies where beaming is not occurring. This causes the high end to sound soft or without sparkle. Andy recommends using a more flat target response at higher frequencies (instead of the usual roll off) for this reason (in this situation with a wideband mounted on axis).
Now with a wideband aimed up at the windshield (in the OEM location in my case), you don’t have this problem, and as Andy puts it, the system acts similar to one with a tweeter and you can tune to a target curve with the usual top end roll off. Im not sure I understand it completely, but I think this is because all that direct (beamed) high frequency energy is immediately reflected from the windshield and reaches our ears very close to the same time as the lower frequencies that aren’t beaming and aren’t reflected off the windshield. Our brains as i understand it are pretty good at interpreting/melding direct sound and very early reflections (just as with the lower frequencies which are reaching our ears directly but also with early reflections in this case).
Andy is careful to point out that use of a wideband like this is not better, but OEMs do it to save on cost.
I would agree; I’m certainly not saying that a wideband is better than a 3-way, nor a 2-way with a woofer selection and tweeter combo that avoids beaming (I really thought my prior combo sounded awesome). I’m just saying that I can hear a difference so far that I like.
I certainly reserve the right to change my mind however and end up joining a club of others that goes back to tweets though :)
To me, this is one of the things that makes this hobby so cool - trying out these different options, the engineering behind it. It’s interesting stuff and it just so happens to sound awesome too!
Below is a relevant section from Andy’s tuning guide:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0dde4e4333.jpg
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Justin Zazzi
For aiming my wideband speakers I went full-crazy and mathed it out.
The goal was to have the left and right speakers be the same angle to the driver's position, and also be installed symmetric in the vehicle. In the diagram I came up with, the left speaker is aimed
in front of the listening position by some amount and the right speaker is aimed
behind the listening position by some amount (the same amount actually).
Maybe this will help someone.
Attachment 10817
I love this! Trigonometry?! And I have no doubt this sounds incredible. :)
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
I love this! Trigonometry?! And I have no doubt this sounds incredible. :)
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It definitely does sound incredible.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Justin Zazzi
For aiming my wideband speakers I went full-crazy and mathed it out.
The goal was to have the left and right speakers be the same angle to the driver's position, and also be installed symmetric in the vehicle. In the diagram I came up with, the left speaker is aimed
in front of the listening position by some amount and the right speaker is aimed
behind the listening position by some amount (the same amount actually).
Maybe this will help someone.
Attachment 10817
Just curious, but is this setup SO symmetrical that if you changed the listening position to the passenger seat, you’d have the same angles from each speaker as well?
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I think it would be just reverse, but then time alignment would be off.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JCsAudio
You can also see where a speaker starts beaming by looking at the frequency charts provided by the better manufacturers with on axis, 30 degrees, and 60 degrees off axis’s. You’ll see the frequency for each one start to diverge from each other at the point of beaming. Take this graph from the Scanspeak Classic 7” mid woofer for example. You can see it starts to diverge as low as 1000 Hz.
Attachment 10816
What many people don’t consider though are all the reflections you get in the tight small space of an automobile. Much of the information you hear is indirect sound as much as it is direct sound and if they don’t match, even when aimed on axis, it will be tough to get everything to sound right. When you LP a driver above it’s beaming point than the indirect sounds will start to become less in amplitude than the direct sounds at the listening position. Having the indirect sound be as close as the direct sound makes tuning easier. This is why using a three way and crossing each driver at or below its beaming point is the best method to use.
Can you be successful with a wide band driver, of course, but you’ll have to be real careful with driver aiming, and you may still not get the same top end sparkle you can get with a tweeter. If you want to use less than ideal factory speaker positions then you may have issues. I’ve seen enough members who went from a traditional two way, replace the tweeter with a wide band and be very excited at first, only to go back to a two way with traditional tweeter, or three way, including myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JCsAudio
Having the indirect sound be as close as the direct sound makes tuning easier. This is why using a three way and crossing each driver at or below its beaming point is the best method to use.
I was just re-reading this and I think JCsAudio said what I was saying, but better. I think Andy makes this same point but in regard to a wideband pointed at the windshield and why it can work well. The indirect sound is very close to the direct sound in this scenario making it easier to tune.
I am 100% positive Justin can tune better than me so I’ll admit that widebands on axis (or near on axis) for me would likely be challenging, but pointed at the windshield? ...I’m hoping the tuning will be manageable. (I think Nick recently gave this advice to someone with regard to a wideband - that pointing at the windshield will be easier to tune)
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
Just curious, but is this setup SO symmetrical that if you changed the listening position to the passenger seat, you’d have the same angles from each speaker as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
I think it would be just reverse, but then time alignment would be off.
Yes and yes. I wanted it to be symmetrical so I could one day try a two-seat setup and I also want it to look good to the eyes, then I covered it all up so nobody can see it lol.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
Just curious, but is this setup SO symmetrical that if you changed the listening position to the passenger seat, you’d have the same angles from each speaker as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
I think it would be just reverse, but then time alignment would be off.
Yes and yes. I wanted it to be symmetrical so I could one day try a two-seat setup and I also want it to look good to the eyes, then I covered it all up so nobody can see it lol.
I'm stoked to see so much interest in wideband and also so much pragmatism when it comes to actually using them. I tried many combinations of locations and aiming and I have no doubt if I chose one of the less optimal position or aiming schemes my car would be a trainwreck to tune properly. No doubt about it.
Everything has a caveat and I enjoy the tradeoff of a l super focused center image (and tight imaging in general) vs a more enveloping and spacious sound. I also love that everything is dashboard height with zero rainbow effect own towards the doors. That's just me though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
I am 100% positive Justin can tune better than me so ....
It's been a while since I've done serious SQ tuning or serious SQ judging.
You might be catching up to me!
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JCsAudio
You can also see where a speaker starts beaming by looking at the frequency charts provided by the better manufacturers with on axis, 30 degrees, and 60 degrees off axis’s. You’ll see the frequency for each one start to diverge from each other at the point of beaming. Take this graph from the Scanspeak Classic 7” mid woofer for example. You can see it starts to diverge as low as 1000 Hz.
Attachment 10816
What many people don’t consider though are all the reflections you get in the tight small space of an automobile. Much of the information you hear is indirect sound as much as it is direct sound and if they don’t match, even when aimed on axis, it will be tough to get everything to sound right. When you LP a driver above it’s beaming point than the indirect sounds will start to become less in amplitude than the direct sounds at the listening position. Having the indirect sound be as close as the direct sound makes tuning easier. This is why using a three way and crossing each driver at or below its beaming point is the best method to use.
Can you be successful with a wide band driver, of course, but you’ll have to be real careful with driver aiming, and you may still not get the same top end sparkle you can get with a tweeter. If you want to use less than ideal factory speaker positions then you may have issues. I’ve seen enough members who went from a traditional two way, replace the tweeter with a wide band and be very excited at first, only to go back to a two way with traditional tweeter, or three way, including myself.
Much of those lines of thinking led me to an install I did in a Pathfinder I owned about 15 years ago - there were all these little 2" full-range drivers from TangBand and others... Parts Express I'm sure sent out some promotional ad pimping some bookshelf speaker or something, that got my mind going - it was definitely triggered from finding a few drivers that were capable with smooth frequency response plots (both on and off axis) from something like 150hz to 12khz. In other words, imagine that plot with the 7" driver there, but not reaching quite as low, and where the off-axis split happened at around 10khz (maybe higher even) rather than 1000hz. Looked impressive. I tried a bunch of them, I am pretty sure I settled on a Tang Band driver - it had a tiny phase plug, maybe they still sell them. They weren't expensive.
And at the time I was really trying different stuff to see if I could improve imaging, if I could improve the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound, and if that could improve the stereo "image".
Fortunately it was a 1995 Pathfinder with basically door "cards" - so pretty easy to scrap and build my own door panels, just using the parts and clips from the old one. I put a piece of wood with a screw tied to a string between the headrests - representing a point between the headrests at ear level (because I wanted the sound to be symmetrical for both driver and passenger), and I used that string like a compass - I drew matching curved lines on my blank door panels, representing the line where the arrival time at your ears would be theoretically equal - I was aligning them for matching pathlength distances to your ears (or rather, to a point as close as symmetrically possible for both driver and passenger).
I ended up mounting four full-range drivers per side, along this curved line, as close to the bottom corner as I could (I was still able to just barely squeeze two 5.25" midbass drivers below the full-range drivers, also basically matching that curve), and initially ran this without tweeters.
Basically this was a near-field line-array, which was something else I was reading up on at the time, that ALSO led to this experiment...
...because they say "never listen to a line array in the near-field" :lol:
What a line array does is re-enforce the sound and project it further, it's why you see them at concerts. Of course, you aren't supposed to listen in the near-field, because you do have multiple pathlength distances between each of the speakers and your ears, so it wouldn't sound good. My thought was "Well - what if we mitigate that by aligning the pathlength distances?"
It actually did largely work, although the most impressive aspect wasn't one that I was expecting: it pushed the stage width way out. I expect this was because four full-range drivers, phase-aligned, mounted close to you - that basically simulates how one of those speakers would sound several feet past and forward of your listening position.
I *DID* end up installing tweeters later, because it did get weak in the upper octave - and much like that graph shows some off-axis breakup , not only was I getting that at wherever that occured on the drivers I selected, but I think that would also be compounded by what's basically the exact same dynamic but not due to cone size, but the array itself, and the fact that I aligned the, to a point between my headrests rather than to the actual point just in front of my driver's headrest (the center of my head).
I was able to get away with running them basically from 10khz and up, if I recall.
Another interesting aspect of this install that was probably "too many experiments in one" was that I ran all those speakers (and two eights in the rear) from a single Alpine 2 channel amp mounted in my headliner, with a hand-made fully passive crossover that made up the rest of my headliner/amp rack, to split that 2 channel signal to [eventually] two tweeters, eight full-range, four midbass, and two subwoofers. All just 12dB/octave, but it sounded great (I didn't go cheap on the caps or coils).
I know I posted this recently... maybe it was this same thread. I should probably look before I type. :lol: (EDIT: it was but I didn't really describe the "why")
Oh - at any rate, the other theory I was playing with here:
You'd have four speakers (per side) whose direct pathlength was aligned and strengthened - the primary sound.
And on the other hand, the four speakers reflections - would all be different pathlengths (speaker, to reflecting surface, to your head), meaning they'd weaken each other. Different time arrivals.
I feel like it worked - but that's a hard one to visualize, much less prove. :hmm:
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
That’s a whole lot of interesting experimenting there Geolemon and I would like to see a few pictures of that work of art if you have them. When I did some work at BOSE I say they had done a lot of work with line arrays there. Some interesting stuff with some very small speakers. The tactically of that in car audio is well, not so practical but if it can be pulled off and successful results then it would make for the center of talk at a show or meet.
BTW, I will get to those simulations, work is picking up and I had some things come up, but it’s on my mind and I really would like to get these going tomorrow.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I wish I had pics of that guy handy.
I just dug through some old photo books - some fun reminiscing but that one wasn't in there. Just installs before my digital photos, and a whole hard drive of those I lost in a divorce.
I do have a couple phone dump folders on my PC. I'll see what I can dig up. I have a feeling they are with my two house remodels and marriage vacations though.
If I can find some I'll prep you now - it wasn't ugly, but it wasn't really a show install. It was cooler than a winter beater should be, but you'll have to appreciate it for the functionality and geek factor [emoji38] I'm sure phone pics were all I'd grabbed, so maybe they are there.
Or actually I could maybe get pics from my buddy I sold it to. I'll do some digging. In retrospect, it was interesting.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Sweet - sure enough my buddy had them!
And it's funny, some of the details I forgot over the past 12 or 13 years. Too many installs over too many years - but I didn't expect I'd forget things about the ones I actually managed to do for myself!! [emoji38]
Like - fundamentally I had 3 not 4 per side in the line array, but I was smarter than I thought - I did have the midbasses behind the array, not in front.
And you can just see the factory A-pillar spot for the tweeters I eventually put in. I believe I hid those Xovers up front behind the scenes, in line with and splitting from the "full range" drivers.
I even forgot I had that EQ in there - that location looks so ugly because the spare was inside and swallowed up half the hatch, so I removed the whole bracket and everything, leaving a little chassis exposed back there. :cool:
Like I said - not pretty. Just functional. You can see I just cut a hole in the dirty old headliner to mount that amp rack/ passive network. And the box was just a rectangle, flat so I could still use the hatch. Stiffened up and deadened the hatch plastic from behind though. That was actually not even the original box that was in there (not that the first was any prettier), I did that one just to play with those eights and wasn't even for this truck (my buddy owned Pro Tech) but then I told him I liked them too much and was keeping them... [emoji38]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...95e362bc6d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...95c12db080.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d9429bff04.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8f8d284af8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a4fbd917d2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...951bf2d9d6.jpg
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
That actuall looks cool. Definetely not the average install we often see and the door speakers look good too.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I think those doors look very cool, geolemon. Have you tried a line array setup like that again since then?
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
I think those doors look very cool, geolemon. Have you tried a line array setup like that again since then?
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I haven't - this just happened to be the stars aligning at the right time. Like I said, those door panels were really more like door cards. Super simple to make those pieces and integrate them - and if it hadn't worked out, super simple to make a new piece with a basic component set to replace it.
Modern door panels are a little trickier - although I'd be inclined to try to push them back to the door structure level so the door panel could just be a matter of restructuring it to integrate a factory looking grill...
There's also the challenge of locating at least one midbass up front and that turns into a lot of real estate.
I'm buying out my lease though, so you never know. :wink:
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Ok, so I installed the Audiofrog GS25 in the corner dash, pointed up at the windshield in the OEM location, and I couldn’t help but get the Peerless SLS 6 after Justin mentioned them in his build. I think this mid bass has been off my radar because I never had a setup that would allow me to use them but, wow. Xmax of 8.2 for $55 each? They are built like little subwoofers.
I was able to do a tune of each of the individual drivers so far (maybe another small tweak here and there to do), but it sounds soooo good.
So like I said before with the GS25, I really enjoy the sound of 250 Hz and up being all above the dash. The imaging is great; I don’t feel the top end is missing anything.
And the mid bass - I’ve never had mid bass like this before. I had the Audiofrog GS690’s in the past and the peerless out do them in my car/setup powered at 120 watts (that’s just my experience though - and the GS690 are GREAT speakers). I must say the Subaru Ascent is built pretty well as I’m not getting a bunch of rattles. At least not yet.
So far, it’s been an awesome experiment and the best my system has sounded. Thanks to all you guys for all the knowledge you pass along.
Now I just need to finish up the tune with matching driver pairs, all speakers at the same time, band passed pink noise, etc.
I am tuning to a curve that is a mix of the half whitledge and Jazzi with a bit more low end boost because I like that ;)
Here’s my tune so far:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d43980259f.jpg
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
Ok, so I installed the Audiofrog GS25 in the corner dash.
...I don’t feel the top end is missing anything.
I know Audiofrog has good stuff - it's just funny how that looks like a cheap OEM speaker, has no apparent advantages (fancy cone, phase plug, etc) but clearly must be well engineered.
I'm tuned into these forums in part because it's install time again and I'm looking for stuff I can't get locally.
I'm curious - granted you are firing them up into a windshield that will redirect - but are you noticing them rolling off on the high end? Based on 2.5" diaphragm size, they should start rolling off around 3khz, again that top of dash location may help?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
I couldn’t help but get the Peerless SLS 6...
...the mid bass - I’ve never had mid bass like this before.
Do you have a link - is that one Madisound carries? I need four - and preferably ones that may initially play up to 3khz as I might start out as a 2 way front stage. I'd love to check those out.
EDIT: is it these?
https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...-ohm--264-1148
Small world... I may actually own two of those - currently have them in a classic radio conversion I did this year (will add pics). [emoji38]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
is that actual measured at listening position, or simulated based on DSP settings out (signal)?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8820daf1bd.jpg
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0261e4eab9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b4ea694e05.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c02f4a195a.jpg
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I just installed some peerless sls 6” too (also thanks to Justin) and am tuning. So far they are great! But to geolemon, I wouldn’t run them much over 500hz.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
geolemon
Yep, those are the ones (the peerless SLS 6), but agree with jdunk. I wouldn’t run them that high.
Yes, the GS25 do not look all that impressive, but they sound great.
That RTA is actual, measured with a umik-1 in REW.
As afar as top end roll off, when tuned I don’t experience one. I do think the location pointed up at the dash helps reflect the beamed higher frequencies quickly so they arrive extremely close to when the direct sound arrives so tuning is not difficult.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
I just installed some peerless sls 6” too (also thanks to Justin) and am tuning. So far they are great! But to geolemon, I wouldn’t run them much over 500hz.
Awesome. Let me know how you like after you get them dialed in. I’ve been impressed.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jdunk54nl
I just installed some peerless sls 6” too (also thanks to Justin) and am tuning. So far they are great! But to geolemon, I wouldn’t run them much over 500hz.
Oh for sure, look at that - and that makes me think those aren't the Peerless 6's I have in that cabinet, because these actually sound great right up to the tweets.
That might still give me a short term option...
I'm hoping I can do a phase 1/phase 2 thing:
1) 2-way with a 6.5/tweet, temporarily
2) 3 way by adding a mid in a fabricated location
Maybe I could buy two sets of those, planning for phase 2... But for phase 1 I could steal the 6.5s from my basement radio for the fronts, temporarily... :hmm:https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8deea2b134.jpg
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
Yes, the GS25 do not look all that impressive, but they sound great.
I forgot to ask-
How did you settle on these guys? Did you have a chance to hear them first?
I still have some other drivers that I was playing with when I did that Pathfinder install, but none of them were in that price range, since i was going to need to buy 6 of them. Still was very happy with those, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another set (and I probably will... I'll go through my Parts Express order history to see if I can find them, if the history goes back that far...).
Did you have any others on your short list? I'd like to make a list of my own as I plan this thing out, and start researching after I at least get the "easy" 2-way base in place.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I needed a wideband that was less than 3” in diameter due to the OEM opening size. On my short list were:
- Audiofrog GS25
- HAT unity U2
- HAT L2SE
- Audible Physics Ram 2
I have had experience with Audiofrog stuff (G60S, GS690) and knew I would be getting quality. Plus, Andy is awesome to work with. He takes time to answer your questions and if a speaker has any issues he does what he can within reason to take care of you (often above and beyond). I know that sounds like a commercial, but that’s just my experience with him.
I hadn’t personally heard any of the other speakers, but I want to. I have heard good things about all of them.
I’m probably missing out on some raw drivers from Madisound or Parts Express as that’s a bit of a new world for me. But, I’ve loved what I have had so far from them such as the SB29RDNC tweets and now the Peerless SLS 6.
Can’t wait to see where you go with your new build/install.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
geolemon
This is great. When I first glanced at these photos I thought you had posted random pictures of an old school jukebox or turntable cabinet. Now I see this is car audio gear. :)
How does it sound?
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
I needed a wideband that was less than 3” in diameter due to the OEM opening size. On my short list were:
- Audiofrog GS25
- HAT unity U2
- HAT L2SE
- Audible Physics Ram 2
Awesome, thanks. Good to have things to look into.
I may reach out to them, see what they say - I'm definitely intrigued.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
I’m probably missing out on some raw drivers from Madisound or Parts Express as that’s a bit of a new world for me. But, I’ve loved what I have had so far from them such as the SB29RDNC tweets and now the Peerless SLS 6.
Can’t wait to see where you go with your new build/install.
Well, I'm not a big fan of buying without listening, because there's only so much that you can determine from specs. Another reason the Pathfinder was a budget install was because I bought I forget, at least 5 or 6 single drivers from PE and Madisound, and mocked up a decent size bookshelf speaker, and started listening to them - so I did let my ears decide. But they were all relatively cheap, I am sure I only spent about $100 or so on that round for listening. Then, that one I liked best - I bought 5 more. Or maybe I bought 6, thinking "smart to have a spare"... I'll have to check next time I'm at the storage unit.
My PE buying history either doesn't go back that far or I wasn't logged in or didn't have an account back then... and I don't see any that look like these - shame because I definitely WOULD have them in my short list to use again, if I remembered what the hell they were. :daniel:
But this time, I'm getting intrigued by controlling reflections by making them basically coincident - by mounting a mid right at that corner windshield location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mauian
This is great. When I first glanced at these photos I thought you had posted random pictures of an old school jukebox or turntable cabinet. Now I see this is car audio gear. :)
How does it sound?
It honestly sounds great. It was a garage sale find for $20 - from one of my old installers from back when I managed the local shop here, actually. Passed it on for what he found it for, after I drooled all over it over Facebook.
That amp is nothing special - it's a 6 channel amp, pretty low power (I forget what now), four channels are bridged to two to feed both voice coils of a very generic 12" DVC sub that I picked up along the way - entry level, low power, nothing special, not even a painted basket from one of my OEM hookups who said "here, free to a good home". :lol:
Focal T90K tweeters up top, just firing through some large holes I made on the other side and rounded off. They really are my kind of tweeters - soft (Kevlar I believe) inverted domes, they aren't too bright, but tons of detail.
The Peerless mystery 6.5's that I can't check the model number on because the lower part is a pretty generous sealed and stuffed cabinet for them., and I'd have some major disassembly just to get it to where I can remove the mids. :daniel: But same thing - they just sound... right. No coloration, no complaints.
And both are pretty efficient - I've got hardly any power on them with just two channels of that amp running through those passive crossovers you see if you look deep to either side of the tweeters.
One interesting thing is those curved panels on this old radio - it only had one big speaker originally, so I think it even predated the very concept of "stereo"... but I carefully mounted the speakers so that they would fire into the curved openings, the tweeters spaced right at the outermost opening. It's not like having a true pair of stereo speakers on each side of you in the room, but if you are directly in front of it (I basically have it in front of my old Ikea sofa in the basement), there's actually some stereo separation.
But they do sound great - I spent way too much time tweaking those knobs on that old-school MTX crossover - you know how that goes. :lol: I'm thinking these Peerless probably don't have the midbass potential of the SLS 6's... someday I'll have to pull this apart to get the model number to compare. I'm not lacking for midbass, but I'm also not cranking it in this small space. I'll have to stress-test it someday and see what falls short first.
This was literally the budget projects of all budget projects - this was "raid the storage unit to actually use stuff to get the wife off my back for having so much audio pieces and parts that I need a storage unit". :lol:
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
I have been running a CDT 2" for years. I found that they are MUCH better facing up into the windshield vs. firing across the dash as some stock locations do. At least with aiming into the glass you get direct reflected sound that is much more on axis than firing across. Combined with a solid 6x9, everything matches up very well. I band pass my 6x9 from 100-1200 and the 2" from 1200+ both on 24dB slopes.
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Justin Zazzi
I went from a 1" tweeter in the sail panel to a 3" wideband in the back corner of the dashboard.
Phenomenal difference in a positive way. I love it.
Gear was Morel Hybrid Ovation 6" and 1"
I swapped the 1" tweeter for a 3" Hybrid Audio L3SE wideband driver.
Then I swapped the Morel 6" for a Peerless SLS 6"
Then I didn't change a thing in the past seven years.
Aiming the wideband driver was very important. I would spend lots of time moving around on the dash with some towels or tape or something and trying many positions and many aiming angles. Even with zero tuning it was very easy to find the best location. I do not notice a lack of sparkle in the highest frequencies.
You might not want to use the GB25 though. It might work, but it is not designed or intended as a wideband driver.
Hey man I got a question. Im working on a 2way active SQL (maybe more leaned to SPL with as much SQ as possible)setup.
So far I have a single Sundown SA-12 at 1200rms clean of an old school Orion HCCA competition amp.
A pair of Stevens MB8s in the bottom of the front doors treated to the max. I believe the MB8s will be considered off-axis
And a pair of SB29RDNC-C000-4 planned to go in the a-pillars on axis.
Also a Dayton 408 and a ppi900.4 to power the front stage.
I've talked to Eric Stevens and he recommends a something like the SB29 which has high sensitivity. He did mention that at high output the tweets should be crossed between 2000-4500, high enough to not blow the tweeters.
I've done a ton a research and have been told the MB8s will begin beaming somewhere around 1500Hz. And it will be better for them to be crossed as low as possible. My goal is to keep all speakers somewhat near their sweet spot, and have high output clearly. This is going to be my first build and I dont have the ear just yet to pursue pristine SQ, as long as it get loud and clear without sounding bad and distorted then everything will be good.
My question is would it be better to use a wideband, on axis, in place of the SB29s? As It seems the proper wideband will help the MB8s be crossed lower and also be able to play high enough to cover all the top end frequencies. Does this sound like a better plan? For simplicity I'd really like to keep the SB29s, run 2way active, and eliminate the need to fabricate a larger spot for a wideband and the need for a 3rd amp, but if the SB29s will not be a good match I dont mind putting in the extra work. Please advise.
I have been looking at the AF GS25 and the Morel CCWR254 2.5".
I'll be looking for a good used set around $100-150 (~$250 retail)
Are there any other widebands you would suggest?
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maxmil982
Hey man I got a question. Im working on a 2way active SQL (maybe more leaned to SPL with as much SQ as possible)setup.
So far I have a single Sundown SA-12 at 1200rms clean of an old school Orion HCCA competition amp.
A pair of Stevens MB8s in the bottom of the front doors treated to the max. I believe the MB8s will be considered off-axis
And a pair of SB29RDNC-C000-4 planned to go in the a-pillars on axis.
Also a Dayton 408 and a ppi900.4 to power the front stage.
I've talked to Eric Stevens and he recommends a something like the SB29 which has high sensitivity. He did mention that at high output the tweets should be crossed between 2000-4500, high enough to not blow the tweeters.
I've done a ton a research and have been told the MB8s will begin beaming somewhere around 1500Hz. And it will be better for them to be crossed as low as possible. My goal is to keep all speakers somewhat near their sweet spot, and have high output clearly. This is going to be my first build and I dont have the ear just yet to pursue pristine SQ, as long as it get loud and clear without sounding bad and distorted then everything will be good.
My question is would it be better to use a wideband, on axis, in place of the SB29s? As It seems the proper wideband will help the MB8s be crossed lower and also be able to play high enough to cover all the top end frequencies. Does this sound like a better plan? For simplicity I'd really like to keep the SB29s, run 2way active, and eliminate the need to fabricate a larger spot for a wideband and the need for a 3rd amp, but if the SB29s will not be a good match I dont mind putting in the extra work. Please advise.
I have been looking at the AF GS25 and the Morel CCWR254 2.5".
I'll be looking for a good used set around $100-150 (~$250 retail)
Are there any other widebands you would suggest?
I'm wondering if you could fit a 2" wideband in your existing location? I'm not very familiar with your existing tweeter, but it looks like it's front fascia is 72mm. The 2" wideband that I'm currently using (CDT Unity 8.0) sounds like it might be very similar in size, both in terms of the fascia and the depth. It also has a spec of 150 watts with a 300hz highpass filter (although personally, I'd run it at 500hz and higher to be safe). May be a perfect fit to replace your tweeter with the same mounting location. It even has a freq response spec of 200hz - 33khz! Although, it's not very sensitive....
Here are the published specs:
[code]
Diaphragm: Aluminum
Surround: Rubber
Basket: Die cast
Magnet: Ring Neodymium
Impedance: 4 ohms
Sensitivity: 84.9 dB
Frequency response:200Hz-33kHz
Resonant frequency: 200Hz
Voice coil: 20.4mm Cooper
Power: HPF 300Hz 150Watt
Frame diameter: 2 14/16” (73mm)
Mounting hole: 2 ¼” (57mm)
Mounting depth: 1 ¼”(30mm)
Center to center diameter mounting screw holes: 2*10/16”
Diameter of *screw holes:3/16”
Flange thickness:*1/8”
[/code]
https://www.cdtaudio.com/sep_compone...ers/unity8.php
Also, another problem is that they are more than you budget at about $300 per set....
Just throwing it out there. It's similar to the Audiofrog GS25, only better (IMO). I have both. I'm not sure how much power the GS25 can handle off-hand - but it certainly isn't as well built as the Unity 8 (it's meant to be heard and not seen whereas the Unity will look great in an a-pillar). I personally love these Unity drivers. I even prefer them over the Illusion Audio C3CX coaxials (I have a set of those that I tried as well).
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Re: Anyone install a wideband to replace a tweeter in active 2-way setup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jtrosky
I'm wondering if you could fit a 2" wideband in your existing location? I'm not very familiar with your existing tweeter, but it looks like it's front fascia is 72mm. The 2" wideband that I'm currently using (CDT Unity 8.0) sounds like it might be very similar in size, both in terms of the fascia and the depth. It also has a spec of 150 watts with a 300hz highpass filter (although personally, I'd run it at 500hz and higher to be safe). May be a perfect fit to replace your tweeter with the same mounting location. It even has a freq response spec of 200hz - 33khz! Although, it's not very sensitive....
Here are the published specs:
[code]
Diaphragm: Aluminum
Surround: Rubber
Basket: Die cast
Magnet: Ring Neodymium
Impedance: 4 ohms
Sensitivity: 84.9 dB
Frequency response:200Hz-33kHz
Resonant frequency: 200Hz
Voice coil: 20.4mm Cooper
Power: HPF 300Hz 150Watt
Frame diameter: 2 14/16” (73mm)
Mounting hole: 2 ¼” (57mm)
Mounting depth: 1 ¼”(30mm)
Center to center diameter mounting screw holes: 2*10/16”
Diameter of *screw holes:3/16”
Flange thickness:*1/8”
[/code]
https://www.cdtaudio.com/sep_compone...ers/unity8.php
Also, another problem is that they are more than you budget at about $300 per set....
Just throwing it out there. It's similar to the Audiofrog GS25, only better (IMO). I have both. I'm not sure how much power the GS25 can handle off-hand - but it certainly isn't as well built as the Unity 8 (it's meant to be heard and not seen whereas the Unity will look great in an a-pillar). I personally love these Unity drivers. I even prefer them over the Illusion Audio C3CX coaxials (I have a set of those that I tried as well).
The SB29s aren't installed yet, I'm still debating on whether to even use them. So I'm assuming you think the wideband route is a better option instead of the tweeters?
I'd really need the widebands to have high sensitvity. The MB8s are 101db @2.83v and I've been told the tweets or wideband will really have to be capable of keeping up at high output. Eric said they really would pair best with a HLCD but thats out of my price range.
Thanks for the CDT suggestion I'll keep my eye out for a used set.