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Complete system upgrade.
So, for years I've been one of those guys who paid the local car audio shop way too much for brands like Kicker, mtx, rf, etc, thinking I had something good.. But that's not the way I'm doing things this time. I just got a new vehicle and I want to get a decent system, one that will blow away my current kicker cvx's and zx1000.1. So I'm starting from scratch. New everything, hu, subs, amp, wiring, and altenator. After tons of reading about products I had never heard of I had to stop dreaming and get back to my budget. Lol. I have some products that are currently at the top of my list. I'm not a rich man, so price is a factor. Subs - 2 American Bass XFL's. Amp - aq2200, or the AB VFL 150.1. So I need some power to push it. I'm doing the big three, but there's a huge question mark at this point. I've found a 250 amp altenator for $160, but it's only 12v. Do I need a 14v altenator, or should I say, will a 14v be beneficial? Also, is there anything else I should do with my electrical system?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
you run a 12V system in your truck, so attempting to change that with some other charging scheme is probably money wasted when you've only got so much to go around.
the High Output alternator you put in, is capable of charging batteries with over 15 volts. The voltage regulator is what keeps that in check, so you don't burn out important things like your ECM and various circuit boards that are made to run in a 12V nominal system.
forget about the BS stuff, just concentrate on using high quality technique, along with attention to detail when installing. Also, use large gauge wiring from the start, don't install with "whatever I had lying around" to see if your various parts "work" because it's way too easy to leave a bunch of stuff connected just because "it's working" instead of doing it right from start to finish.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Great advice there caj.....
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
What are your goals? Are you looking to simply give yourself some good low end, or are you wanting an SPL monster? Also, are you looking to compete?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Good deal, the 12v it is. I bought all new wiring. I went with NVX 100% copper, 1/0 gauge for the big stuff, 8 gauge for the subs. So do I need an upgraded voltage regulator?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
I want a setup that has decent sq at a fairly loud spl level. I just got a new job and there's quite a few bass heads there. They've rekindle an old flame. They're all into this local audio shop and pay crazy amounts of money for RF P3's, and mtx 5500's, one dude has a full Crunch setup, etc. I decided to go another route.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Other people may disagree, but I'd only upgrade the alternator if either you already need a new one, or if you installed the system and the electrical can't keep up (lights dimming, battery keeps going dead, etc)
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
If you watch your headlights against something after dark and they are dimming with every low note played ,, might need a stronger alternator [ alternators used in emergency medical vehicles ( ambulances ) need to run massive electrical loads !
The batteries/batcaps will be what allows you to run 2 of the 1222 subs @ a 1/2 ohm ! What will subs be in [ wall/vented box/sealed box , et cetera ?]
You going to get SPL measured ? Will high 130,s or low 140's be enough ?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
At this point the only thing I've bought for my new setup is a 4v JVC hu, and my wiring kits. My kicker set-up is in my Mustang, which I'm about to sell. When the Stang goes the buying will get rolling. Once I get started I'll see how my electrical holds up. If it's a problem I'll get the alty. I've already got a big 3 kit so I'm gonna throw that in.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Well, by now you can tell I'm not a car audio guru. I'm studying, but don't even have a steady base to build on yet. Lol. I have came across tons of information about products, and specs. My budget is a major factor, and American Bass seems to have awesome bang for buck qualities with the $175 12" XFL's and a solid amp for around $300 in the VFL 150.1. As soon as my car sells, the car audio purchasing starts. My goal is to start the install next weekend, products in hand. Does anyone have any recommendations for products that might have slipped through the cracks?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
what is your total budget? Im assuming this will be going in your blazer?Are you going to be fabricating your own subwoofer enclosure?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
My budget for subs and an amp is $700. I have a total of $1000, but I'm holding some back incase I need the altenator and for my enclosure build. The enclosure build is a first for me. I used to be a solid sealed only guy, but I've decided to give ported a shot this time. I was planning on finding a 2.5 cubed per sub design on fatbox and emulating their build. That is if I go with the XFL'S. I'm not sure on that yet. I have to finalize my product selection first. And yes, this set-up is for my Blazer, the Cobra is going away.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Are you planning on using head unit to power the stock speakers ?
Or will there be an amp for new speakers? Some coaxial or 6 x 9 's ?
Looks like you are doing an SQL system ! ( sound quality LOUD )
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hic
Looks like you are doing an SQL system ! ( sound quality LOUD )
maybe he wants sound quality medium loud. Or maybe he wants sound quality loud sometimes. Or sound quality only on rainy days. lol come on Hic! lol its just SQ.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
My bad Bob, 2 ported 12 inch subs is what the majority have.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
SoundQubed has a nice selection of subwoofers as well. Their amps usually aren't priced too terribly bad either.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Will the enclosure hold 2 subs? One port, maybe centered, multi-directional option would be a plus.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
If you can rotate the box ( forward/backward/up , thiss will help with what position works best! I
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Sound quality is important, but I also want car shaking loudness. My idea of loud might not be on the same level as what you guys can do. Lol. Ive been wondering about box position, and which way to fire the port. I haven't got that far yet. My job sent me on a road trip which altered my build time.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Thanks for post, I was wondering. With connections on one end of box, facing box in diff direction is easier. More of the systems I have heard are run into the gas station loud! You want to hear it through closed glass doors LOUD. Usually, some speakers powered off h.u. and a couple in the box.
I have heard a single twelve that was louder and cleaner/clearer sounding than a 15 and in my opinion was the quality of the system ( it cost more ).
I put together the system with the twelve and asked the guy to show it to the guy who had the fifteen and thought it was all that . I did the next system for the guy with the fifteen with better quality pieces ( cost more and performed like it! )
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Some prefer cheap chinese made amps and subs, and since distortion is perceived as loudness . . .
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
So my job is sending me out of town, which interferes with my American Bass build plan. I'll be driving the Blazer and I'm not going on the road with a stock radio setup. I took all of the kicker stuff from the Cobra and threw it into the Blazer. I used my new hu and the wiring kits. I hooked it up the same way I had it in the Cobra, but now the amp cuts completely out if I try to turn it up at all. I did some checking and realized I had been running it at 1 ohm, or at least according to the kicker product mannel, and my kicker 1000.1 is only stable at 2 ohms. The thing that I find confusing is that I've been running it this way for years. The only difference in the system is I'm now running a 0/1 gauge amp wire and my hu is 4 volts. Is it possible that I've had it hooked wrong the whole time, but the smaller 8 amp wire wasn't supplying the amp enough power to make it protect itself? I'm running my subs bridged positive to positive, and neg to neg on each individual sub, not the positive to neg way. It sound really strong for the 3 seconds it played. I tried wiring it parallel and it was terrible, no sq at all. Could this be a voltage problem? The Blazer has a smaller electrical setup than the Cobra. I would still be out there rewiring but I'm a little confused.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
You are very lucky that it lasted as long as it has, what,s your new amp going to be? Sundown amps do 1 ohm all day long.
Just a thought. I have seen dual one ohm coils wired in parallel running at 1/2 ohm on a Sundown amp.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Gatorade,
Series wiring works very well with dvc subs, ie, dual 4ohm voice coils wired one after the other, gives 8ohms , now if you have two of them and wire both subs in parallel it creates a 4ohm final resistance.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Gatorade,
Series wiring works very well with dvc subs, ie, dual 4ohm voice coils wired one after the other, gives 8ohms , now if you have two of them and wire both subs in parallel it creates a 4ohm final resistance.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
The new amp is going to be either a vfl 150.1 or a American Bass phantom 4000. I really want an aq22200 but I don't have enough money. I've even looked at soundstream rubi's but i don't know about those.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
A VFL 150.1 is an excellent choice !
Nice 2nd choice: Soundstream Picasso Series Monoblock PA1.6000D
- Soundstream Picasso Series PA1.6000D
- Class-D 1-Ohm Stable Monoblock Amplifier
- RMS Power Rating:
- 4 ohms: 1400 watts x 1 chan.
- 2 ohms: 2000 watts x 1 chan.
- 1 ohm: 3000 watts x 1 chan.
- Total power output: 6000 watts
- Pulse Width Modulated MOSFET power supply
- Wired remote bass level control included
- LED power (green) and protect (red) indicators
- Soft start turn-on
- Mono channel operation
- Preamp RCA outputs to daisy chain multiple amps
- 3-way protection circuitry (thermal, overload, and speaker short protection)
- Signal to Noise Ration: >104dB
- Variable low-pass filter: 30 - 250 Hz, 12 dB/octave { set to 80 hz }
- Subsonic filter: 10 - 50 Hz , 12 dB/octave - { will be needed for a ported enclosure }
- Variable Bass Boost: 0 to +12 dB bass boost at 45 Hz
- Fuse Rating: 120 A x 3 - { Big 3 upgrade and 1/0 power/ground wires needed }
- Phase Control: 0° to 180°
- 0/1 gauge power and ground wiring is recommended for installation. { NEEDED }
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
I just tried to order a vfl 150.1 but was stopped by the price tag. I had been looking their hybrid versions, thinking they were the real VFL. I went the cheap route, because I still have electrical purchases to make, alt, big three. I got a soundstream Piccaso 1.6000 for $200 to hold me over until my car sales. The kicker amp isn't cutting it, sounds terrible.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Here is a series of 3 things = 1,2,3 0r a,b,c
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gatorade
The thing that I find confusing
I'm running my subs bridged positive to positive, and neg to neg [ this is wired in parallel ]
I would still be out there rewiring but I'm a little confused.
In series/one after the other/neg to pos, pos to neg.
In parallel/side by side, neg to neg/pos to pos.
To bad about the great korean made amp. 150.1
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
I have it wired in Series and it doesn't pick lows very good. Im going with a 1 ohm load, wired parallel with the new amp.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Okay fellas, Some of you guys have been extremely helpful in broadening my car audio understanding, and I appreciate that very much, thank you. But as it seems it looks like my electrical setup is going cost more than I thought. My car audio stash is looking smaller the more I learn. To start off with should I go with the big 3 and a h.o. alt, or leave the stuff under the alone and get a 2nd battery in the back? Another thing, I was looking at a 12v 250 amp alt made by Delco for $170. Will this alt supply the power for 2500 rms. I plan on doing some other stuff with my electrical, but that could be in the not so near future. I made a deal with my wife that if I put this system in my truck she could get new flooring in the house. Yeah I'm about to be broke! Lol. Anyway what combination would work best for awhile...new alt, big 3, or stock alt 2nd battery, or stock alt with an adjustable voltage boast module, maybe a 12 to 16v converter somewhere in the mix. I'm working with $300. I just want to get a setup that will bang. I don't know enough yet to choose the best combo. There's so much information and I work 55hrs a week to support my family, little time, little pockets.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Take a look at the CAB1600.1 amps. There are youtube vids of those things doing over 3000 watts, plus they are only $199! Also, take a look at the Dark Audio Industries DKI line of subs. 1000 watts rms for around $200 each. Might make a great little set up with amp and subs for $600! I have a pair of the NKO-12's (600 rms), although I've never powered them, the build quality seems very solid.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Okay, this is a true story: one of my co-workers wanted me to come out and check out his new rims after work. I went out and saw these big 22" chrome monstrosities on a 70's Monte Carlo, and since I knew he worked hard to pay for them and was so proud, I told him they looked great (I lied). After talking cars and stuff for a few minutes, I got ready to head home. He stopped me and asked me to help him push his car out of the parking space, the reverse was jacked up on his transmission.
The moral of the story is that when your budget is slim, spend your money wisely.
Instead of worrying about high-output alternators, extra batteries, and the like, just get your system installed and then determine if you need the rest. A 2500W system is only going to put out 2500W when you're playing test tones at full volume. Most of the time (at regular listening volume), the system is only putting out 200-300W. If you get your system installed and find that you have electrical issues such as lights dimming or weak battery, then start doing electrical upgrades. You could start with the Big 3 because it's cheap, but forget about upgraded alternators, extra batteries, etc. for now.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
at the risk of...
I don't have confidence in your understanding of parallel vs. series wiring schemes, Gatorade.
if you would go look at bcae.com, the tutorials are easy to follow and may give you some ammo to help me believe your ohm-fu is strong.
the idea that simply swapping vehicles with the same equipment leads to amps going into protect and new problems, makes me believe the new install is perhaps, in error somewhere. Usually it's a bad ground path, something as simple as the body to frame rail ground strap that came stock with the vehicle, not sufficient in gauge could bottle neck the amp flow to the battery/alt power source.
grinding the paint off instead of scraping lightly with a dull pocket knife, etc.
making tight crimps, all large gauge terminals should be strong enough to almost lift yourself from, little set screws ln amps should compress copper strands to indent the bare ends with a circle...
once you've gone twice through all your connections, pulling, pushing, twisting, to check for tight, then you can attach GD at the battery and see what you've got.
it's usually very simple and rare that a component dies or goes bad just from moving to another vehicle.
as for the dreaming about subs and amps and all, just try to get your head around the ohm law, and be less eager to just jump in on e-experience, also known as "I read it on the internet"
you'll be better off long term, if you can make a couple of passes through that BCAE site, and see another step in the process instead of just extrapolating what one install took, (in electrical demands) over what your install will require.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gatorade
Anyway what combination would work best for awhile...new alt, big 3, or stock alt 2nd battery, or stock alt with an adjustable voltage boast module, maybe a 12 to 16v converter somewhere in the mix. I'm working with $300. I just want to get a setup that will bang. I don't know enough yet to choose the best combo. There's so much information and I work 55hrs a week to support my family, little time, little pockets.
Look at your negative battery cable. Wimpy, right? This feeds your entire system plus all other vehicle electrical demand.
Start with improved grounds. 1/0 from neg battery post to frame and neg post to engine block...
I usually run 3 amps. A mono in the 1k-1200 rms range, a big 4 channel bridged to mids and a small 2 channel. With improved grounds and the biggest AGM battery that will fit stock location, no need for other electrical upgrades.
Good luck :)
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
I'm doing a lot of research today, and it's getting clearer. But there's one thing I just can't get to the root of. All the wiring diagrams I've looked at say wiring 2 ohm subs parallel creates a 0.5 ohm load to the amp, but in verbage it talks about half ohm impedance, and the kicker product mannel says it's a 1 ohm load. I don't want to damage anything.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
Forget about the word "subwoofer" for a minute and think strictly about voice coils. All subs have either one or two voice coils (sometimes 4), and each voice coil has its own impedance rating, usually 4, 2, or 1 ohm each.
When you wire similarly rated voice coils in parallel (+ to + and - to-), you divide the impedance by the number of voice coils. For instance, if you have a 4ohm VC and you run it parallel to another 4ohm VC, the total ohm value drops to 2ohms. If you wire four 4ohm VC's in parallel, you end up with a total of 1 ohm. If you wired three 4ohm VC's in parallel, you would end up with a total of 1.33ohms.
When you wire similarly rated voice coils in series (-of one VC to + of another), it adds all of the ohm values. Example, if you wire two 4 ohm voice coils in series, you end up with 8ohms. Two 1ohm VC's in series produce a 2ohm load.
Having said that...a sub with dual 2ohm VC's can be wired to either produce 1ohm (if the VC's are wired in parallel), or 4ohms (if the VC's are wired in series). So, if you took a pair of subs with dual 2ohm voice coils and wired everything in parallel, it would all produce .5ohm. But, if the subs only had single 2ohm VC's, then wiring them in parallel would produce a 2ohm load.
Now, to add a little bit of complication to the matter, if you had a sub with dual 2ohm voice coils, and wired the VC's in series, you would have 4ohms, but if you wired two of these subs in parallel with each other, it would produce a 2ohm load overall. This is known as a series-parallel circuit.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
also, the impedance seen by a 2 channel amp is stated in stereo, with regards to minimum impedance guidelines.
that's why you can get confused also, because a 1 channel amp, known as a mono amp, doesn't freak out when you put it's minimum impedance on it.
the stereo amp, by virtue of having 2 channels, when operated in a mono or bridged configuration, (also, mono and bridged, haha) will get wooly if you transpose the stereo minimum impedance rating to the bridged rating without considerations...
the 2 ohm stable stereo amp, is hurt by 2 ohm mono installation.
see there?
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
the kicker manual says 1 ohm, because that's what 2 ohm coils in parallel is, half the impedance of one coil.
the reason it might be confusing is when you use a 2 channel amp, and you bridge 2 ohm coils but want to say what the stereo impedance turns out to be, you have to assume it takes two 1 ohm final impedances at each channel, left and right. This means the bridged impedance on that amp is now 1/2 ohm, since you are basically wiring in parallel when you bridge a stereo amp.
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Re: Complete system upgrade.
You are in effect using each half of the sine wave , as viewed on ocilloscope .