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Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
I used LR/24 in Jazzi's tuning companion for REW when I created my House Speaker Curves. I have LR/12 Crossovers set in my Helix DSP,... I tuned to the LR/24 House Curve using REW. So, the Electrical XO's are at LR/12 in the DSP, but the Acoustical Speaker curve and XO's are line up really nice to LR/24 in the 'Overlays' window in REW. So, my question is... should I flip the Phase on Tweets & Mid-Base like the 'tuning companion' excel suggest, or should I NOT flip because the Acoustical's are lined up at LR/24? (front 3-way + Sub)
Do we swap polarity/invert according to the electronic crossover or the acoustic crossover?
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brego
I used LR/24 in Jazzi's tuning companion for REW when I created my House Speaker Curves. I have LR/12 Crossovers set in my Helix DSP,... I tuned to the LR/24 House Curve using REW. So, the Electrical XO's are at LR/12 in the DSP, but the Acoustical Speaker curve and XO's are line up really nice to LR/24 in the 'Overlays' window in REW. So, my question is... should I flip the Phase on Tweets & Mid-Base like the 'tuning companion' excel suggest, or should I NOT flip because the Acoustical's are lined up at LR/24? (front 3-way + Sub)
Do we swap polarity/invert according to the electronic crossover or the acoustic crossover?
Phase changes based on the acoustic response. So in this case, leave it. 24db and 24db mating up combines to a 360 degree (aka 0 degree) phase shift
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Thanks for the response, but I'm not understanding your answer. you stated "So in this case, leave it."... so do you mean leave it flipped/inverted or NOT flipped/NOT inverted?
You said "24db and 24db mating up combines to a 360 degree (aka 0 degree) phase shift", but I'm using 12db and 24db. I EQ'ed to a Speaker Curve that was created using a LR/24, but have LR/12 XO settings in the DSP...
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
You have 12db electrical slopes and 24db acoustical slopes? Am I reading that correctly?
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Why not just use 24dB slopes everywhere to make it easy? :-)
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Try it both ways and let us know if it changes anything...
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brego
Thanks for the response, but I'm not understanding your answer. you stated "So in this case, leave it."... so do you mean leave it flipped/inverted or NOT flipped/NOT inverted?
You said "24db and 24db mating up combines to a 360 degree (aka 0 degree) phase shift", but I'm using 12db and 24db. I EQ'ed to a Speaker Curve that was created using a LR/24, but have LR/12 XO settings in the DSP...
By "leave it" I mean dont flip phase on anything. If you're measuring 24db slopes, each one has a 180 degree phase shift (one leads and one lags) at the crossover point. Aim for a 24db acoustic rolloff on every crossover and that will leave everything in phase. The electrical settings do not matter, so long as the speakers are safe from low frequency content
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hillbilly SQ
You have 12db electrical slopes and 24db acoustical slopes? Am I reading that correctly?
Yes.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jtrosky
Why not just use 24dB slopes everywhere to make it easy? :-)
I have... for years I have tried LR24, to be honest, its the only slope I've every used until just a few days ago, when I decided to try LR/12's just for the hell of it...
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SkizeR
By "leave it" I mean dont flip phase on anything. If you're measuring 24db slopes, each one has a 180 degree phase shift (one leads and one lags) at the crossover point. Aim for a 24db acoustic rolloff on every crossover and that will leave everything in phase. The electrical settings do not matter, so long as the speakers are safe from low frequency content
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
oh Thanks so much!
I sounds much better with no phase inversion. When I invert the phase, I lose a lot of the stage focus, but it will sound wider across the windshield, kinda like the music has more hard-left & hard-right music in its recording.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
If you measure the speakers together and then flip the phase on one of them then you will get cancellation were they merge and it will show up as a dip in the response at the crossover point when measured with a microphone, which means they are out of phase. If the response has the opposite effect then they are in phase. Electrically two speakers with 12 db slopes should be 180 degrees out of phase at the crossover point but if the net result is 24 db for each driver (just guessing here now so Nick correct me if I’m wrong) then they would be back in phase at the crossover point. For each 6 db increase in electrical crossover your phase changes 90 degrees until it gets back to 360 at 24 db. It’s been a while but I think I have that correct.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brego
I used LR/24 in Jazzi's tuning companion for REW when I ....
I'm not sure if it's clear, but I am Jazzi and I post here now. I'm glad you enjoy the tool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brego
Do we swap polarity/invert according to the electronic crossover or the acoustic crossover?
Acoustic is the only response that matters. All rules of thumb apply to the acoustic response. Ignore the electrical response, it is just a means to an end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JCsAudio
If you measure the speakers together and then flip the phase on one of them then you will get cancellation were they merge and it will show up as a dip in the response at the crossover point when measured with a microphone, which means they are out of phase. If the response has the opposite effect then they are in phase. Electrically two speakers with 12 db slopes should be 180 degrees out of phase at the crossover point but if the net result is 24 db for each driver (just guessing here now so Nick correct me if I’m wrong) then they would be back in phase at the crossover point. For each 6 db increase in electrical crossover your phase changes 90 degrees until it gets back to 360 at 24 db. It’s been a while but I think I have that correct.
That sounds right.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
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Originally Posted by
Justin Zazzi
I'm not sure if it's clear, but I am Jazzi and I post here now. I'm glad you enjoy the tool!
I use your tool for every tune as well! Great tool. Thanks for making it.
And I've just learned from this thread that you need to make the acoustical response match to a 24db cross over slope to achieve an in-phase cross over. This should help a lot in my next tune.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
When I used LR/24 as my electrical XO's, ((and LR/24 in Jazzi's excel)) the RTA response always measured about a 33db down-slope on my High-Pass side, and about a 30db down-slop on my Low-pass side. This made me boost the EQ Freq's in those areas to match up to the Speaker curve, with big cuts in the center freq's, and by doing that, I always had a harsh, thin sounding system. The only way I could offset the horrible down-slopes was to ‘Overlap’ my XO’s.. and that NEVER seemed to work very well.
When I used electrical LR/12 XO’s, the RTA response matched to a natural LR/24 roll-off on the HP & LP sides a lot better. I did have to ‘underlap’ my XO’s quite a bit to get it all to line up,(before Eq’ing) but after some Eq’ing, the results of the sound of my system is so dramatic, it’s like a whole new system was installed. ALL the harshness is gone, the tonality of the system is so much deeper, dynamic, crisp, tight stage, with sub&base up front….. hell… even XM radio sounds pretty good….I finally have a base tune good enough that I can spend some time to ‘fine’ tune it…..
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brego
When I used LR/24 as my electrical XO's, ((and LR/24 in Jazzi's excel)) the RTA response always measured about a 33db down-slope on my High-Pass side, and about a 30db down-slop on my Low-pass side. This made me boost the EQ Freq's in those areas to match up to the Speaker curve, with big cuts in the center freq's, and by doing that, I always had a harsh, thin sounding system. The only way I could offset the horrible down-slopes was to ‘Overlap’ my XO’s.. and that NEVER seemed to work very well.
When I used electrical LR/12 XO’s, the RTA response matched to a natural LR/24 roll-off on the HP & LP sides a lot better. I did have to ‘underlap’ my XO’s quite a bit to get it all to line up,(before Eq’ing) but after some Eq’ing, the results of the sound of my system is so dramatic, it’s like a whole new system was installed. ALL the harshness is gone, the tonality of the system is so much deeper, dynamic, crisp, tight stage, with sub&base up front….. hell… even XM radio sounds pretty good….I finally have a base tune good enough that I can spend some time to ‘fine’ tune it…..
You saw the light my friend! Very cool!
This is a great example of if you get the acoustic response to match the targets then it doesn't matter if you "underlap" the electrical filters or whatever. Asymmetric and non-conventional filters are not the enemy! I need to make tshirts or something.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
That light is still dim... but as I experiment more, the light is getting brighter....
Hey, I'd buy your T-shirt... but, I gotta google what the hell "Asymmetric" means first.....
Thank You for creating that brilliant piece of work “Jazzi's tuning companion for REW”.. I never would have gotten this far without it !
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
I going to try Crossover Butterworth/18 next,,,, to determine if I can reduce the 'underlap' a bit.....
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
So am I reading this right? The electrical crossover doesn't matter as long as the acoustical crossover is where it needs to be? As in you don't need the electrical crossover and acoustical crossovers to match as long as the acoustical crossover is good?
I remember back in 2008 Nick Wingate (everyone should know who he is) got in my truck and almost threw up when he heard about 5 seconds of it. He told me my acoustical phasing was off really bad and started going to town with the crossovers in my Alpine 9833. That was a very popular way to go active back when a standalone processor was still unobtanium for most budgets. He got acoustical phasing lined out best he could and bailed out. He also had me make adjustments with my PG tld66 linedriver that I had in there for independent level control that couldn't be done with the headunit or amps. Then Mark Eldridge and David Seal did some eq work. That truck sounded AWESOME for what it was after those three were done with it. Our very own Jorge (doiter) was there too. I don't think Nick Wingate was nearly as concerned about the electrical crossover as he was the acoustical crossover. I keep going back to what he was telling me when I think about acoustical slope vs electrical slope and phase.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hillbilly SQ
So am I reading this right? The electrical crossover doesn't matter as long as the acoustical crossover is where it needs to be? As in you don't need the electrical crossover and acoustical crossovers to match as long as the acoustical crossover is good?
I remember back in 2008 Nick Wingate (everyone should know who he is) got in my truck and almost threw up when he heard about 5 seconds of it. He told me my acoustical phasing was off really bad and started going to town with the crossovers in my Alpine 9833. That was a very popular way to go active back when a standalone processor was still unobtanium for most budgets. He got acoustical phasing lined out best he could and bailed out. He also had me make adjustments with my PG tld66 linedriver that I had in there for independent level control that couldn't be done with the headunit or amps. Then Mark Eldridge and David Seal did some eq work. That truck sounded AWESOME for what it was after those three were done with it. Our very own Jorge (doiter) was there too. I don't think Nick Wingate was nearly as concerned about the electrical crossover as he was the acoustical crossover. I keep going back to what he was telling me when I think about acoustical slope vs electrical slope and phase.
Justin, Chris, and I just had a good chat about this late one evening.
Yes, you are reading it right. Nothing electrical ultimately matters for the acoustical response at the listening position. That means if your speaker naturally rolls off at 12db/oct at 80hz, you may only need to apply a 12db/oct filter to get it to match the 24 db/oct acoustical slope. Or you might need to apply a 6 or 18 or even 24 to match your curve.
Now it might make a difference if you need to lower the crossover beyond the speakers limitations to match what you ideally would like....which means you need to raise your crossover point to fit your speaker and not make your speaker fit your curve.
For example. I was attempting to get my wifes suv to cross at 2000hz in her car. The tweeters couldn't do it unless I dropped the crossover to around 1700-1800hz. I wasn't comfortable dropping that far due to limitations of the tweeter and I thought I would then be pushing it too hard and could cause it to blow. So I changed the crossover point to around 2500hz based on the tweeters frequency response.
You just need to remember if you were to measure the frequency response close to the speaker and you lower your crossover, the speaker will be playing those lower frequencies, but at your listening position something has interfered with them.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
What about for example on a pair of midranges where they act different around the intended cross points? Can one be at 24db for example and one at 18 or 12? What about mixing Linkwitz Riley and Butterworth slopes? I'm personally not a fan of odd order electrical slopes but probably more of a superstition than anything.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
the only thing that matters about the "electrical crossover" is protecting the speakers from signal that is too low in frequency for them to handle. Just becuase your response reads that a tweeter is crossing over at 2k on the rta, and your crossover in the dsp software shows 1k, those tweeters are still seeing and playing that 1k signal.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hillbilly SQ
What about for example on a pair of midranges where they act different around the intended cross points? Can one be at 24db for example and one at 18 or 12? What about mixing Linkwitz Riley and Butterworth slopes? I'm personally not a fan of odd order electrical slopes but probably more of a superstition than anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Justin Zazzi
You saw the light my friend! Very cool!
This is a great example of if you get the acoustic response to match the targets then it doesn't matter if you "underlap" the electrical filters or whatever. Asymmetric and non-conventional filters are not the enemy! I need to make tshirts or something.
here ya go
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
With this knowledge I think my next tune after I finish my upcoming build will sound way better. I was keeping them all LW 24 as I thought electrical crossover mattered. Now I'll focus on the acoustical crossover. Find the electrical crossover that best relates to a LW 24 acoustical crossover and EQ the curve from there if need be.
Question:
Should the acoustical crossover of the left side and right side be the same frequency?
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrwalte
Question:
Should the acoustical crossover of the left side and right side be the same frequency?
Do you mean acoustical or electrical? If acoustical, then yes right and left should match. If electrical then they need to be whatever gets each speaker to match the acoustical.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrwalte
With this knowledge I think my next tune after I finish my upcoming build will sound way better. I was keeping them all LW 24 as I thought electrical crossover mattered. Now I'll focus on the acoustical crossover. Find the electrical crossover that best relates to a LW 24 acoustical crossover and EQ the curve from there if need be.
Question:
Should the acoustical crossover of the left side and right side be the same frequency?
Is your question about the Left side .vs. the Right side of your car, or the left down-slope .vs. the right down-slope, or the
HP down-slope of your tweeter .vs. the LP down-slope of your Mid-Range?
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Yeah, I actually just learned about this no too long ago in another thread here. I was keeping all electrical crossover slopes the same as the acoustical slope - thinking that was the right way to do it - but that caused me to need a 6dB boost near the crossover area on one of my midbass speakers (and I still couldn't hit the slope just right) - and I had no flexibility with my acoustical crossover freq because of the huge dip near the crossover. So now I set the electrical crossover freq higher on that midbass channel and use a 36dB slope, which makes it so I don't need the huge boost near the crossover freq anymore.
Made things *so* much easier once I understood that the electrical crossover settings really don't matter as long as you get the acoustical crossover that you want.
The amount I have learned about audio system tuning over the past year or so from these forums is insane. Never even seen a DSP a year ago and now I'm tuning my Helix DSP like it's nothing. :-) I still have a lot to learn, but I've learned *so* much already.
Still don't understand allpass filters though.... :-) That is the next item I need to dig into.
Thank you to everyone on these forums that help us noobs out each and every day - it truly is appreciated.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
It's in relation to each acoustical crossover per speaker on each side. So if left mid highpass naturally rolls off best for an acoustical crossover of 300, but the right is 350, should I make both acoustical crossovers at 350 or make left 300 and right 350.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrwalte
It's in relation to each acoustical crossover per speaker on each side. So if left mid highpass naturally rolls off best for an acoustical crossover of 300, but the right is 350, should I make both acoustical crossovers at 350 or make left 300 and right 350.
I would make both sides at 350. One main goal is to have each side, each pair of speakers match perfectly.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jtrosky
Yeah, I actually just learned about this no too long ago in another thread here..
Would it be possible to post the link here... I'd love to read that thread.....
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hillbilly SQ
So am I reading this right? The electrical crossover doesn't matter as long as the acoustical crossover is where it needs to be? As in you don't need the electrical crossover and acoustical crossovers to match as long as the acoustical crossover is good?
I remember back in 2008 Nick Wingate (everyone should know who he is) got in my truck and almost threw up when he heard about 5 seconds of it. He told me my acoustical phasing was off really bad and started going to town with the crossovers in my Alpine 9833. That was a very popular way to go active back when a standalone processor was still unobtanium for most budgets. He got acoustical phasing lined out best he could and bailed out. He also had me make adjustments with my PG tld66 linedriver that I had in there for independent level control that couldn't be done with the headunit or amps. Then Mark Eldridge and David Seal did some eq work. That truck sounded AWESOME for what it was after those three were done with it. Our very own Jorge (doiter) was there too. I don't think Nick Wingate was nearly as concerned about the electrical crossover as he was the acoustical crossover. I keep going back to what he was telling me when I think about acoustical slope vs electrical slope and phase.
Was this at one of the Brown-EQ's (named for the Mrs's brownies) at Seals house? I went to a couple of them there...what was a blast. Wish somebody would throw together a DFW-area GTG like that again!
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
metanium
Was this at one of the Brown-EQ's (named for the Mrs's brownies) at Seals house? I went to a couple of them there...what was a blast. Wish somebody would throw together a DFW-area GTG like that again!
Yup, and you won a very nice Focal component set the day I'm talking about too.
And as for this thread...this changes everything for how I'm gonna go about my next tune. I've learned a lot over the past year and my tunes keep getting better and better with each new tune.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
The thing I like most about this new tuning method, is not only how deeper the upper Mid-Range & Tweets sound, its that the harshness is gone. The instruments and cymbals have a remarkable stronger and cleaner presence. The level of the singer’s voice matches the level of the music sooo much better.
Settings for creating the Speaker House Curves
Attachment 9090
(hope this is large enough to see)
I have tuned where I used the above setting in my DSP. I always thought the electrical crossover and acoustical crossovers had to match, and I always had a harsh system.
When I changed my Xo’s from LR/24 to LR12 in my DSP and started taking measurements, I tuned to the LR/24 Speaker Curves. I ended up with these setting for my Xo’s for Tweet & Mid-Range…. I have not tuned my Mid-Base & Sub yet. It sounds so good, I don’t wanna muck it up… but I will tune it soon.
DSP settings
Left Front Tweet LR/12 HP=4929, Right front Tweet LR/12 HP=4076
Left Front Mid-Range LR/12 LP=3707, HP=440, Right Front Mid-Range LR/12 LP=3559, HP=423
Left Front Mid-Base LR/12 LP=327, LR/24 HP=75, Right Front Mid-Base LR/12 LP=327, LR/24 HP=75
Subs LR/24 LP=75, LR/12 HP=34
The Crossover settings I’m using for my GB10’s & GB25’s are well within their playable limits at a 12db slope, so I don’t have to worry about low freq’s mucking them up.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brego
Would it be possible to post the link here... I'd love to read that thread.....
Sure - here is a link to the thread:
https://www.caraudiojunkies.com/show...-3-help-thread
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jtrosky
That's a really good thread. Thanks for posting! I wish I had read that before opening up this thread and junking up this place with repetitive questions. SkizeR really nails what this thread is all about on page 6 & 7. Dammm thats gotta drive him crazy to answer the same questions over and over....
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
... all the things ...
Oh my gods, yes! So yes!
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Just to try and "illustrate" this with a few pictures, here are two pictures of my Right Door midbass response. The acoustical crossover I'm going for is 65hz/500hz LR24.
Here is how the response matches the target curve with electrical crossovers set to 65hz/500hz LR24:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b6caa31ae9.jpg
And here is how the response matches the target curve with electrical crossovers set to 55hz (LR24) and 725hz (LR36):
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d50efc80c2.jpg
So to make the response match the curve at and around the 500hz acoustical crossover I ultimately want, I would need to apply *signifcant* boost around the 500hz crossover area if I used electrical crossover settings that match the acoustical crossover that I want.
But by increasing the electrical crossover frequency from 500hz to 725hz - and using a 36dB LR slope instead of a 24dB LR slope, I can basically avoid the boost completely. By lowering the lower crossover value, I can also get the lower crossover area to match a lot better (I don't EQ to hit the target curve on the low end, I let it roll off naturally, but it gets a lot closer by using a 55hz xover freq instead of 75hz crossover freq on the low end as well).
I just pulled up old pictures, so the overall levels aren't exact, but you get the picture - use whatever electrical xover values that get you closest to your target acoustical xovers!.
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Wouldn't shaping the acoustical phase with eq accomplish the same thing if electrical crossovers were just in the wrong spot with each position?
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
What speaker could you possibly have, and installed how that you are crossing at 55hz to 750 hz?
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hillbilly SQ
Wouldn't shaping the acoustical phase with eq accomplish the same thing if electrical crossovers were just in the wrong spot with each position?
Yes, but this is usually less work
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Re: Electrical Crossover and Acoustical Response
And as long as the cross points are 12db or 24db down at one octave above and/or below where it starts to roll off you're good to go? Still wrapping my brain around this but think I about got it...