Ask an Acoustic Engineer (me)

If Maxmil982, regarding the drivers, I’ll start with my home speakers and then use that to discuss the driver selection. My home theater speakers are JTR 212HTR (sealed version, should have gone with ported) and they have 2 12” MIDRANGE drivers to try to keep up with the sheer efficiency of the horn-loaded compression driver. The 12” midrange drivers only play down to about 80 Hz (70 if ported) so they are definitely not home midbass speakers. Now my speakers, since they are so efficient can play extremely loudly. I often tell people with most speakers if you turn them up too much, they’ll start to become unhappy (distortion), with my speakers you’ll become unhappy before they will.

So using that as the basis for the car audio discussion, you’ll want to focus on higher efficiency drivers and skew your crossover points to the upper end. So maybe the tweeter will be crossed at 4 or even 5,000 Hz. But if you’re looking at a 2-way, this isn’t going to work well for even the best 8-inch drivers so you’ll need to go with a larger format tweeter (1.5”-2” tweeter) so you can cross them closer to 2,500 or 3,000 Hz. You’ll want to choose a tweeter with an Fs closer to or even below 1,000 Hz.

For the midbass you’ll want to play it as high as you have to to integrate with the tweet but preferably bring the tweet down to 2,500Hz or so because the beaming (directionality) of an 8” starts at 2,000Hz. So you might say then maybe you should cross the tweeter at 2,000 Hz so you don’t get any beaming but then you’ll put more strain on the tweeter, which means more distortion. So with a high volume system, you want to stay away from the limits which means crossing the tweeter, crossing the 8” a little higher than maybe they’re capable of. So the midbass you might want to cross at 90 or 100 Hz instead of 80 because 80 will take more effort to play and interfere with getting loud. Then you’d just bring the subwoofer up to 90/100/110 to integrate smoothly with the midbass.

I think the biggest problem people have in car audio is they want to play super loud and make each driver play super low. You can usually have one or the other. A high efficiency driver won’t play as low as a normal efficiency driver. If you just figure out what your goals are, which it seems you have, just choose the drivers that will fit that design goal. I think the MB8 will probably work well for you but you’ll want to go with a larger, high-efficiency tweeter to ensure the 2-way will work well and play loud.

The only other comment I have is that a single 12” sub of moderate excursion may or may not handle the volume you’re trying to run. You may want to consider a higher-efficiency ported design (won’t play as deep as sealed but will be louder), adding a second sub, or going with a higher excursion design with closer to 30mm of excursion.

Sounds like the makings of a very good system. I think you’ll learn a lot.

Many thanks man! You've been a great help.

Part 1:
As it pertains to the MB8, I've taken what you said and am considering getting the 2ohm which does have 2.83v SPL of 101.67 db, but I talked to Eric Steven's and he said that that output is when feeding it 450rms and that at half the watts the output will be ~3db lower.

Which works out because the amp I have for it does 225w @2ohm. "Works out", meaning I'm thinking of addressing what you said about the single SA12 possibly not being loud enough for the full output of the MB8, by feeding the 8" half the rated juice and porting the SA12 in a custom box around 1.5 cubes to help it play louder.

I hope this is all correct, and then the system will have some expandability to double the juice on the 8"s and add a 2nd sub in the future.
Please lmk if you see this as a viable solution.

Part 2:
For what you said about needing tweets that can play low to meet the mids and have higher sensitivity, what would be your pick out of these...or none?

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...covery-r2604/8330-tweeter-dual-ring-radiator/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...2606/9200-horn-loaded-1-textile-dome-tweeter/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/
 
Two major things in my favor: I absolutely love the science of sound, and I found a mentor while I was still in college.

I started in car audio because I always lived in someone else's house and couldn't put speakers and wires in the living room wherever I wanted. When I had my first car I quickly realized I could do anything I wanted with speakers so it became my laboratory. Car audio was how I experimented and learned and grew, and I soon found there was a whole community of people who loved car audio too. I joined a couple forums and started making friends.

A big breakthrough was taking the judge training for MECA sound quality competition and then becoming an active judge. This further trained my ears to listen for things, and trained my mind to communicate what I was hearing into a score rubric or into plain words that a non-competitor could easily understand. Becoming a judge is the second-most important thing I've done to further my career because it gave me a new network of people to interact with which is where the first-most important thing happened: I met my mentor.

My mentor has helped me find many ways to connect with the professional audio community, starting with the ALMA organization
https://almaint.org/

ALMA puts on an annual conference where all the engineers at all the serious audio companies come together to talk about all the cool stuff they're working on and the things they learned. This is a place to share knowledge and help eachother. There is some business that happens which is also a draw for professionals already in the field but the best part is the people staffing the company booths are literally the engineers who created the products. If you have a question about microphones, engineers from GRAS and PCB are there to help. If you want to learn about Beryllium as a tweeter dome material, Materion's engineers are there. Wolfgang Klippel is always there and usually brings a few of his employees and they always present something amazing.

Professional networking is something I always shrugged off as "yeah ok that's what old people do" but when I found the right group of people to talk to (the people at ALMA's events) then I realized it was actually amazing. This is where I met Seigfried Linkwitz (from the Linkwitz-Riley crossover) and he invited me to his home to audition his personal audio system where I immediately bought plans to build my own. This is where I met Wolfgang Klippel whom I later had a short internship with at his company in Germany. This is where I met Jerry McNutt who is the head engineer at Eminence Speaker Company where I had a summer internship and was later hired and I began my acoustics career. This is a magical place for someone like you and me.

The neat thing is ALMA's event is virtual this year and admission is free if you register here: https://almaint.org/elementor-6293/
I cannot recommend this highly enough. ALMA also has a student initiative which is getting stronger. Send me a private message here with your email address and I'll introduce you to Barry Vogel who runs ALMA.

As for starting work after college or going to grad school, I can only tell you what works well for me. I've had a lot of practical experience with audio and a lot of self-taught acoustic knowledge. When I graduated I was ready to never be in school ever again, I hated it with a burning rage I cannot put into words. I ran full speed to Kentucky to work at Eminence and never looked back.

Then I did something unfathomable that I still can't believe: I started grad school. I have been a terrible student on paper my whole life and I'm routinely in the 2.0 GPA range. I have a 3.7 in grad school right now and I'm on track to get another A with my current class. I'm enrolled in the "world campus" at Penn State and taking one class a semester with their distance education program (before distance education was cool like today haha). My company is reimbursing the tuition and I'm learning the most amazing stuff and my favorite part is I'm applying the knowledge in a very serious way before the final exam. Right now I'm taking the 2nd of the signal processing classes and I'm applying literally everything I know in that class to a project this week. It's incredible.

So for me, the combination of practical knowledge and experience with acoustics was powerful and let me start my career. If you don't have as much, you might benefit from grad school and if you go full time then you can get it done in a year or two instead of the 5-year pace that I'm at. Plus you don't have to worry about homework for the next five years while you're also working full time (that part sucks hard).

I guess my advice is do what you love and find two communities: a casual one to make friends and a professional one to start a career (and also make friends). ALMA is the best professional one I know of, so lets start there. Send me a message with your contact info.

Sounds somewhat similar to me. I have tried to shove a fair amount of speaker in my bedroom here at home, but ran into space issues. Biggest I had was a pair of altec a7s, but those never left the garage. Only had them there a few days until I sold them so my parents could get their garage back...
At my apartment at college though, I have nice 15" jbl speakers with altec horns.

But at home, my only system is my car. I do drive a lot too, so its nice.

Anyway, thanks for all the info, I registered for the event, and sent you a PM.
 
...Regarding a capacitor, realize that amplifiers have built-in capacitance and capacitor construction has (slightly) improved over time. A capacitor is just a really short term and very fast “battery” using the generic term of a battery being an electrical charge storage device.

I agree with everything except this part - and it's EXACTLY why the people who are anti-capacitor aren't even having the right conversation, much less making the right points. :wink:

A battery and alternator are voltage sources - they simply have different voltage levels:
An alternator is 14.4v.
The only reason a battery is at 12.5v is so it charges.
It's actually not a fundamental problem for voltage to drop or headlights to dim - that's how the system works:
Say your alt is making 110a of current and you put on a track that has the bass hit for a second, every ten seconds. Let's say you have a huge sub amp, every time the bass hits, the amp sucks 150a on that huge bass hit.
What happens?
The alternator can only supply the first 110a, so voltage instantly falls and when it reaches the 12.5v battery level the battery supplies the additional 40a for that second. Headlights aren't as bright on 12v vs 14v so yeah, you'll see them dim. That's just the system working 100%as it should. And 1 second later, current demand ends, voltage rises back up - and the battery charges just about as fast. Plenty of time before the bass hits again. Not a problem.

The point is - like the springs on your car, these are voltage sources. They are like the springs on your car - they hold it up, they fundamentally support the voltage level, and supply the current.

And capacitors are like the shock absorbers on your car - you wouldn't want to drive without them... Let's add a little more reality to this-

Realistically, batteries are chemical devices and they are relatively slow to respond to current demand. They have thin plates and chemicals inside, and big sudden demands can actually physically stress them. It can crack battery plates which will kill a battery.
Just as importantly IMO, is that speed issue - let's go back to that bass hit:
Voltage drops fast, and when it reaches 12.5v, the battery tries to supply current but it's slow to respond... Voltage keeps falling.. 12v... 11.5v...11v? Could happen (and that makes for more dramatic headlight dimming). That stress on the battery plates as it pulls the voltage back up can hurt the battery, as mentioned.

Let's add a capacitor to the mix:
Bass hit, voltage drops. But a capacitor isn't a voltage source, it's at whatever system voltage is. So, as voltage drops, it discharges current that the system can use. That isn't SUPPOSED to stop voltage drop - it's supposed to SLOW voltage drop, so the battery can respond without drama, without damage.

It's not a spring, it's a shock absorber. It's definitely NOT a small battery.

EDIT: Being a capacitor, it also functions as a noise filter - it smooths the power line, by absorbing and filling noise, which appears as ripples - which are low level voltage fluctuations.

EDIT 2: I should also mention ESR, which really is a misnomer since we're using them in a DC capacity. Internal resistance is everything - the lower, the closer to the theoretical perfect capacitor. The higher, the slower to respond.
In the 90s, we saw a bunch of those square "giant farad rating" caps hit the market... Those had high internal resistance, functioned more like batteries as a result - and thus were born the myths of "capacitors don't do anything" and "install a second battery if you want a cap". :wink:

That's my only correction. Hope that helps.

Personally, it's a cheap upgrade that I think every system should have - first. Well, second, after power wire. Possibly even before the "big 3", since those are simply about a relatively minor efficiency improvement.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
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Out of those I like the SB29 based on the frequency response graph, sensitivity, and helpful reviews. It also has a lower Fs to allow crossing a little lower; maybe a little lower than 2,500Hz depending on crossover slope and volume level.
 
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I agree with everything except this part - and it's EXACTLY why the people who are anti-capacitor aren't even having the right conversation, much less making the right points. :wink:

A battery and alternator are voltage sources - they simply have different voltage levels:
An alternator is 14.4v.
The only reason a battery is at 12.5v is so it charges.
It's actually not a fundamental problem for voltage to drop or headlights to dim - that's how the system works:
Say your alt is making 110a of current and you put on a track that has the bass hit for a second, every ten seconds. Let's say you have a huge sub amp, every time the bass hits, the amp sucks 150a on that huge bass hit.
What happens?
The alternator can only supply the first 110a, so voltage instantly falls and when it reaches the 12.5v battery level the battery supplies the additional 40a for that second. Headlights aren't as bright on 12v vs 14v so yeah, you'll see them dim. That's just the system working 100%as it should. And 1 second later, current demand ends, voltage rises back up - and the battery charges just about as fast. Plenty of time before the bass hits again. Not a problem.

The point is - like the springs on your car, these are voltage sources. They are like the springs on your car - they hold it up, they fundamentally support the voltage level, and supply the current.

And capacitors are like the shock absorbers on your car - you wouldn't want to drive without them... Let's add a little more reality to this-

Realistically, batteries are chemical devices and they are relatively slow to respond to current demand. They have thin plates and chemicals inside, and big sudden demands can actually physically stress them. It can crack battery plates which will kill a battery.
Just as importantly IMO, is that speed issue - let's go back to that bass hit:
Voltage drops fast, and when it reaches 12.5v, the battery tries to supply current but it's slow to respond... Voltage keeps falling.. 12v... 11.5v...11v? Could happen (and that makes for more dramatic headlight dimming). That stress on the battery plates as it pulls the voltage back up can hurt the battery, as mentioned.

Let's add a capacitor to the mix:
Bass hit, voltage drops. But a capacitor isn't a voltage source, it's at whatever system voltage is. So, as voltage drops, it discharges current that the system can use. That isn't SUPPOSED to stop voltage drop - it's supposed to SLOW voltage drop, so the battery can respond without drama, without damage.

It's not a spring, it's a shock absorber. It's definitely NOT a small battery.

That's my only correction. Hope that helps.

Personally, it's a cheap upgrade that I think every system should have - first. Well, second, after power wire. Possibly even before the "big 3", since those are simply about a relatively minor efficiency improvement.

I was trying to simplify but thanks for the detail. I’ll follow up by saying I read a lot of posts where people think they need this or that and they haven’t even tried their system yet. There are a lot of people with successful car audio systems using the stock electrical system. No capacitors, no big 3, etc. So this is why I suggest installing the system first and seeing how it goes, especially when the poster in this particular case is only using a pair of reasonable size class D amplifiers. But that is just my opinion and worth the price paid. :)
 
Capacitors are one of those never-ending debates like "is class d as good as ab".

Unless we can share measurements and experiments and data, these discussions are rarely productive.
 
I have a question for an acoustics engineer that is brewing over on another thread.

Why does 125dB at 4KHz damage your ears but 125dB at 40Hz does not? I used to know the answer back in the day. But now my brain is filled with crap like Tiger King. Had to eject some knowledge to make room for trailer park reality shows :)

Ge0
 
I have a question for an acoustics engineer that is brewing over on another thread.

Why does 125dB at 4KHz damage your ears but 125dB at 40Hz does not? I used to know the answer back in the day. But now my brain is filled with crap like Tiger King. Had to eject some knowledge to make room for trailer park reality shows :)

Ge0

What a complex question. I think you need the "ask audiologist" thread!
This is at the limits of my expertise, so don't quote me too hard.

The question can be interpreted many different ways such as:

why does 4khz hurt more than 40hz?
We are more sensitive to this region due to speech or some evolutionary thing or maybe just because. Maybe predators in the bushes make noise in this region right before they ate our ancestors so we became tuned to that region.

why does 4khz get damaged more than 40hz?
The 4khz frequency range seems to be the region most commonly damaged by noise-induced hearing loss. More thoughts below.

why does 4khz cause more damage than 40hz?
More thoughts below.

It is hard to find a consensus on what exactly causes hearing loss. There is some agreement that very high intensity noise can cause permanent damage immediately. There is some agreement that long-term exposure to medium and high intensity noise can cause damage. There is little agreement on exactly what composition of noise causes more damage.

There are also many mechanisms for hearing loss including mechanical conduction loss in the eardrum or the tiny bones between it and the inner ear, or damage to the tiny hairs in the cochlea, or damage to the nerve endings or a degenerative condition and so on.

There is also the Acoustic Reflex to consider which can act like an attenuator to reduce transduction of sound from the outer ear (eardrum) to the inner ear (cochlea and such). This reflex is activated during very loud sounds as a reflex and it is, interestingly, activated involuntarily during speech and you can contract the muscles voluntarily such as during a yawn (I think?). I've read that the acoustic reflex has a reaction time on the order of 10ms to 100ms which is in the frequency range of 100hz and lower.

I have two guesses (and only guesses!) why 4khz can cause more damage than 40hz:
First, and I think my better guess, is the ear canal acts like a peaking filter that increases the intensity of sound in the 4khz range. Thus, any noise in that frequency range that enters the ear is going to be amplified and therefore have a better chance of causing damage. You can see this when the transfer function of the ear canal is measured such as the graph below.

View attachment 11048
image borrowed from Clinical Verification of Custom-Fitted Musicians' Earplugs

Second guess, and this is pure dreaming on my part, is the acoustic reflex that can attenuate a sound before it reaches your inner ear has a "slow" reaction time so that impulsive noises like gunshots or firecrakers (or 4khz tones) start so suddenly that the acoustic reflex doesn't have enough time to react and give you what little protection that it can. Again, pure conjecture on my part!

---

Kinda related but really cool:

Typical foam earplugs have a good noise attenuation and they are good at protecting the ear from damage. However, they change the frequency response of what we experience and they tend to sound muffled like the higher frequencies are missing.

View attachment 11049


I'm going to borrow two more pictures from the really neat article below:
Clinical Verification of Custom-Fitted Musicians' Earplugs

View attachment 11050

The blue line is frequency response of a typical ear, open, without an earplug. The orange line is frequency response measured with foam plugs in place. Notice the bass is attenuated a little bit and the treble is attenuated a lot? This is why foam plugs sound muddy or dark.

The image below is a product from Etymotic called the ER-20 musician earplugs.

View attachment 11051

The article above examined the ER-15 model which is very similar. The musician earplugs have a few specially-tuned air chambers inside the clear shell that act liked tuned resonators to allow the sound to pass through the earplug with a "flat" frequency response so that your experience with the earplugs in is much more like with the earplugs out, but overall quieter and much safer.

View attachment 11052

Notice in this measurement that the orange line more closely follows the blue line? This is what the musicians earplugs are all about.

I use these are the office all the time and they are spectacular! I highly recommend them since you can still talk to people and enjoy loud things at the same time while not having this muddy/bad experience. I can hear all the little telltales of distortion and buzz/squeak/rattle and other anomalies we need to listen for at high volumes to make sure the speakers are not being over-stressed and so on ... but while protecting my ears. Super cool stuff.
 
I have a question for an acoustics engineer that is brewing over on another thread.

Why does 125dB at 4KHz damage your ears but 125dB at 40Hz does not? I used to know the answer back in the day. But now my brain is filled with crap like Tiger King. Had to eject some knowledge to make room for trailer park reality shows :)

Ge0

I couldn’t find a definitive reason for why high frequencies cause more hearing loss but an audiologist mentioned bass didn’t cause hearing damage when I was exhibiting my 24” subs at a show. I just tried finding an answer and couldn’t but this was the most interesting paper I could find for our audience and it gives several clues.

https://courses.physics.illinois.ed...Notes/P406POM_Lecture_Notes/P406POM_Lect5.pdf

I’m ignoring Presbycusis, which is age-induced hearing loss that primarily affects the high-frequencies, likely due to the finer hairs required to hear (be excited by) the short high-frequency audio waves.

After skimming this multiple times, I wasn’t able to come up with a single answer but I learned a ton about how the ear works. A couple things stood out.

* The ear is designed to boost sensitivity to higher frequencies (above 4,000 Hz). My guess is because these frequencies are more directional and our survival has often depended on identifying where a threat is.

* if you look at the figure at the bottom of page 19, notice how less sensitive humans are to lower frequencies while being more sensitive to frequencies above 10,000 Hz. I guess this would be my best guess for why low frequencies don’t cause hearing loss as readily, the human ear is simply less sensitive to the deep bass region. And I wonder if that is due to evolution since how many deep bass frequencies occur in nature that also affect human survivability? I can think of volcanos but not many others. And with volcanos, you’ll get many non-audible clues.

* As an aside, it is interesting that only 1,000Hz is equal for actual loudness level and apparent loudness level. Maybe this is why 1,000Hz has been selected for so many audio related specifications such as amplifier power.
 
If the mechanism is to lower the rail voltage like I think RIPS does, then I imagine it would affect all channels since they usually share one set of rails.

If the mechanism is something else, then .... maybe?
I’m presuming each ‘half’ of the amplifier has its own power supply section so it can control both sides voltage rails individually in a four channel... so 1+2 would have its own rails and 3+4 would have its own power rails and it can adapt the power rails for each to suit
 
How did you get into car audio acoustics? I am majoring in mechanical engineering with an acoustics concentration, going into my senior year. Car audio acoustics is certainly an interest of mine. After I graduate I might consider going into that, or to grad school.

The stuff that is being done with active cancelation in exhausts and also "headers" which use speakers to have a higher bandpass of tuning is pretty slick.
 
Hi Justi,
A couple of questions in 6th and 8th order bandpass boxes...

in a 6th order "dual bass reflex" can design the lower frequency side using normal 4th order ported software tools, and then consider the higher frequency side the same way?

the two questions for the 8th order...
1)
In the 8th order that is a 6th "order dual bandpass", blowing into a common chamber where are those cambers tuned?
Let's say it is 30, 45 and 60 Hz... and the chambers are D, E an F... (just to make it different than ABC.)
So D is at 30 Hz, and the E is to the right... and the chamber F sit on top with D and E blowing into F.
If the E chamber/port is tuned to 45 Hz, and does then F just pass all notes below its tuning freq of 60 Hz?
Is that third chamber just to add some gain at the highest frequency, and also to limit/attenuate frequencies above that chamber and port's tuning frequency?

2)
Then in the ABC design, with a port between the larger and smaller chambers... most of those call for the same port dimensions in all three sections. How does the lower frequency work? and the port that connects the two chambers seems to not be tuned to 30 Hz?
it seems like if that is for the 30 Hz side, then by the time the 30 Hz tunes come out of the other two ports that they would be 180 out of phase?
And why isn't each port tuned to a specific frequency, along with the two chamber volumes differing?
 
I used to do a lot with ABC boxes right around the time I was doing sub engineering - I even have a 15 year old prototype XBL^2 ten in a prototype compact ABC box... which I'd generally call a failure, because Hoffman's Iron Law still holds true. The frequency response wasn't bad, but didn't have much bottom octave, and wasn't all that loud because I really wanted to see how small I can push things... this was my "that's enough, then" smallest box, end of experiment. :lol: Still have it...

If you think of how a port works, you can see how both the coupling port and the rear port work (and why all the group delay). It might be easier to picture how passive radiators work - they work the same as ports.
I won't step on Justin's toes, I'd love to see a good description myself...

To me it makes sense - the front chamber pretty much working like a traditional vented box - but also stimulating a column of air in the coupling vent which in turn works like a subwoofer stimulating that second chamber (again, maybe easier to imagine a passive radiator), which then has it's own port to the outside world.

But yes, the tuning - why "equal port lengths" and why the result? That's definitely worth diving into, and even though the whole daisy-chain of sub-box-vent-box-vent to me makes intuitive sense "why big group delay?", the tuning aspect is more of a mystery.

I would presume (but never dove into it) that if you designed an ABC box using the "three equal ports" as a starting point - that'll at least get you to a known place.
Then - let's say you take some measurements in-car, and decided that... I don't know, you have a very small car, so you are perfectly happy with your SPL around 60hz, but you are still seeing a slight rise from there to 40hz... and you'd rather flatten it and extend your response to 30hz. So, maybe you take your existing design, and lengthen the port coming out of the larger chamber - I'd think you could do that. Then they wouldn't be equal, and I think you'd have the tweak you want.
...what I don't know is, would that impact the other chamber? Part of me thinks "yes", because that would fundamentally alter the pressure dynamics inside that chamber. Part of me thinks "no", because that second vent will still function as a vent, and that sub is still the driving pressure actuator in that chamber.

So what if you had the OTHER problem? Maybe you like your low-end response, but you want to change the upper response. This seems very tweaky, like a bandpass box, but whatever - let's say you want to raise or lower your tuning.
I'd be interested in the effects of both the coupling port and the output port, on that secondary chamber.
I'd speculate that you could most easily tune the output port, on the secondary chamber, by shortening/lengthening it.

Changing the length on the coupling port really makes me wonder - especially from my comments on group delay - could you tune the coupling vent higher (shorter length) and then tune the output vent lower (longer) to get the same tune? Could there be a benefit (group delay) or is the combined effect of the shorter-one-place, longer-the-other just going to "net nothing" for you?
Is it as simple as "if you tune the coupling vent higher, without lengthening the output vent, you'll effectively tune that chamber higher?"

I'm definitely curious. Always had luck with that design, but definitely fall short of an expert, despite experience.
2)
Then in the ABC design, with a port between the larger and smaller chambers... most of those call for the same port dimensions in all three sections. How does the lower frequency work? and the port that connects the two chambers seems to not be tuned to 30 Hz?
it seems like if that is for the 30 Hz side, then by the time the 30 Hz tunes come out of the other two ports that they would be 180 out of phase?
And why isn't each port tuned to a specific frequency, along with the two chamber volumes differing?
I used to build a lot of these myself. I always used the "same port dimensions" for all three, but I have speculated that you could probably substitute an effectively same-tune port of different dimensions, if for some reason (maybe depth) you really wanted slot vents to the outside, but needed to use maybe two round ports in the corners, for the coupling port. I never did experiment with that, will be interesting to see what Justin thinks.

I will comment that I always did like this design, specifically because the default tuning of both chambers really seems to line up incredibly well against the typical car interior's cabin gain... So unlike a high-tuned vented box or some poorly designed bandpass boxes that become one-note wonders, you essentially have SPL boost between your two tuning frequencies... it gives you more boost towards the lower frequency, and that slope between the lower and upper tuning frequency lines up really well to pretty much flatten out inside a car.
...which also explains why these things would be total failures in a larger, more open environment like a listening room or a bar or club. The room gains wouldn't be complimentary, like they are in a car.

There's probably too much group delay to call this an "SQL dream", but for someone who likes it loud, and doesn't quite reach the IASCA-SQ-competitor level of audiophile, it can really be a great fit.

Also, Justin-
Could you maybe voice your opinion on what I've always thought was a misnomer, "Aperiodic Bi-Chamber" just doesn't fit - it's all vents. Never seen one done aperiodic. I feel like someone plugged in a word there, for marketing reasons... "Eh, sounds fancy. They'll never know."
That being said, the other acronym "Dual chamber tri-tuned" or DCTT I always felt sort of misnomer-y on also. Yes, dual chamber. Tri-tuned? Ehhhh... I guess kinda sorta but... really there's two vents, and yeah a vent in the middle, but...
Well, maybe that is a good link back to my other questions on the tuning what-ifs. :wink:
 
My further confusion includes:
If the port(s) create nodes that also limit cone excursion then:

1) How does the sub stay cool in a bandpass if there is limited excursion at/around each control node?

2) What causes the impedence to rise at the places of low excursion?
(the inductance and resistance is the same, so is it back EMF?)

3) If ported arraignments have a higher impedence at the frequencies where there is low excursion, then how are they able to sound louder? (as the delivered wattage must be going down proportional to the impedence rise)



...
There's probably too much group delay to call this an "SQL dream", but for someone who likes it loud, and doesn't quite reach the IASCA-SQ-competitor level of audiophile, it can really be a great fit.
...

If one could remove the group delay, then it seems like the main limiter to an "SQ dream" is transient response?

It is possible that one could believe that a bandpass limits distortion, and if that were part of SQ, then could it be worthwhile to consider a bandpass box without any desire for SPL?
 
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If one could remove the group delay, then it seems like the main limiter to an "SQ dream" is transient response?

It is possible that one could believe that a bandpass limits distortion, and if that were part of SQ, then could it be worthwhile to consider a bandpass box without any desire for SPL?
If you are asking "Could you DSP the group delay out?" then I suppose technically that might be possible... I've never heard of anyone doing that. It's not a simple delay, it's an increase by frequency (so, like vented) and in the case of a 6th order bandpass doubly complex - so you'd have to have some pretty trick DSP software with a way to implement variable delays by frequency... I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but I don't know if anyone has made software with those features.

You can design a bandpass box without the SPL boost - I'd say "just give it a wide passband" but of course I"m sure you've played with modeling software, and that's not always that simple - but you get the idea. Right driver, 4th or 6th order, tuned conservatively on the low end, then widen out the upper tune - you can shape that curve. But there's the old question of "why bother?"

...of course you do mention a good "why bother" - the fact that the port does act like an acoustic filter, at a slope like a crossover, higher frequencies don't escape. So sure - it hides some distortion. The downside is, if you are beating the snot out of the sub you won't hear that bottoming-out death knell - it'll just die. Then you'll know. :lol:
 
If you are asking "Could you DSP the group delay out?" then I suppose technically that might be possible... I've never heard of anyone doing that. It's not a simple delay, it's an increase by frequency (so, like vented) and in the case of a 6th order bandpass doubly complex - so you'd have to have some pretty trick DSP software with a way to implement variable delays by frequency... I'm sure it's theoretically possible, but I don't know if anyone has made software with those features.
...

Most poeple ether do ^all that^ with a FIR dsp, or using MiniDSP with DIRAC to do that sort of thing.
i suppose it seems possible to do it with IIR?


...
You can design a bandpass box without the SPL boost - I'd say "just give it a wide passband" but of course I"m sure you've played with modeling software, and that's not always that simple - but you get the idea. Right driver, 4th or 6th order, tuned conservatively on the low end, then widen out the upper tune - you can shape that curve. But there's the old question of "why bother?"
...

What modelling S/W?
i have not been able to find anything.


...
...of course you do mention a good "why bother" - the fact that the port does act like an acoustic filter, at a slope like a crossover, higher frequencies don't escape. So sure - it hides some distortion. The downside is, if you are beating the snot out of the sub you won't hear that bottoming-out death knell - it'll just die. Then you'll know. :lol:

Does "beating the snot out of it" consist of sending it DC, or over excursion?
With a 300W amp and the control points I do not think I will be running into XMax, nor thermally cooking it.

Now if one wanted to make up for a lack of Midbass, then one could cross the sub over higher. But then to avoid localising it, the distortion needs to be somewhat lower.

Then there is also a double whammy as the lower excursion, around the control points, also lowers distortion... so one starts out low, and then any distortion gets further filtered within the box.


But it I am not sure which bandpass we are taking about? The ABC? or the one with a chamber on top of a dual bass reflex.
i am still unclear on the which chambers are responsible which bands?
 
Most poeple ether do ^all that^ with a FIR dsp, or using MiniDSP with DIRAC to do that sort of thing.
i suppose it seems possible to do it with IIR?
I'm not talking about simple delay - like those slick auto-EQ systems sometimes adjust both EQ and distance for time arrival...
I'm talking about group delay, which is a variable by frequency, imposed by the vent - which comes on progressively - and that's the simple description of a normal vented box.
Once you get into a bandpass box, you have two vents, two tuning frequencies, a much more complex group delay plot.
...then an ABC box? I can only imagine the group delay - plus in that case, my belief is you have more group delay from the high-tune chamber, yet you have the direct output of the sub. In that case, I would believe it impossible to DSP out, no matter how fancy your DSP. It's only the bandpass box that I can even fathom it as possible, and I don't think people are doing that often, if ever.

For reference, here's a group delay plot for a simple vented box:
View attachment 11408




What modelling S/W?
i have not been able to find anything.
For an ABC box? I built a spreadsheet like 15 years ago, I'd have to dig that out of the archives...
But it started with a basic vented box tune, and then calculated the response based on the individual chambers, combined.

If you want to build one, you basically model up a standard vented box (like I mentioned earlier - the bigger the better, as "compact" really kills your benefits). I used to use round ports - use a reasonable sized round port. You don't want chuffing, but you also don't want to make your box absolutely HUGE because of all the port displacement inside). Your software will give you your total box volume and the dimensions of ONE port. You'll actually make three ports that size.
And I don't even recall now where the tuning target was... I think you want to try to tune it reasonably low, like 30hz...
I'll have to dig out that workbook, now I don't even recall. I believe that both chambers will end up with an effective tune higher than your base tune, but it wasn't too extreme. You'd end up with a rising response between those two tuning frequencies, and that combines nicely with cabin gain - but like I said, just an odd FR plot for anything else.

Now it's time to build. You build a single box, two chambers:
Chamber 1: 2/3 of your total volume. You also need to include your sub displacement and the displacement of 1.5 vents, in this chamber.
Chamber 2: 1/3 of your total volume. You also need to include the displacment of the other 1.5 vents.

Effectively, the larger chamber gives you your lower tune, as it does for a bandpass box. And the smaller chamber will give you your higher tune - it doesn't care that it's a moving mass of air pressurizing it rather than a cone. I'm sure you could build one with three passive radiators rather than vents. That would be interesting.

Does "beating the snot out of it" consist of sending it DC, or over excursion?
With a 300W amp and the control points I do not think I will be running into XMax, nor thermally cooking it.

Now if one wanted to make up for a lack of Midbass, then one could cross the sub over higher. But then to avoid localising it, the distortion needs to be somewhat lower.

Then there is also a double whammy as the lower excursion, around the control points, also lowers distortion... so one starts out low, and then any distortion gets further filtered within the box.


But it I am not sure which bandpass we are taking about? The ABC? or the one with a chamber on top of a dual bass reflex.
i am still unclear on the which chambers are responsible which bands?
On both the ABC and the bandpass - and for any box, for that matter - if you keep port dimensions the same, the larger you make your chamber, the lower you make the tune. So for both bandpass and ABC, your larger chamber is your lower tune, controlling the lower part of the response plot. And your smaller chamber is your higher tune, controlling the shape of the upper part of the response plot - as well as whether you have a dip between peaks.

Only the bandpass will mask distortion, because the subwoofer is 100% inside the box - all that is escaping the box is the pressurized air fluctuations, the indirect air that's being stimulated by the sub, in the box.
The ABC box, you also have the subwoofer cone itself outside the box, working pretty much like a normal vented box - so you'll still hear all the high frequency content of distortion, abuse, bottoming out, lead-slap, you'll hear it.

Sure - on a 300w amp, you aren't TOO likely to encounter that. But you could - get a cheap sub, and/or build a huge box, and/or tune it pretty high then play a 20hz tone, etc, etc. :wink:

For the strategy of raising the crossover point for make up for poor midbass - yes, it makes sense conceptually... but also it's not as simple as just raising your crossover frequency. I take that back - for an ABC box - sure.
But for a bandpass box - again, that upper tuning frequency acts as a low pas filter. So if that's cutting off your response at 70hz... you could totally disable that crossover and you still aren't getting 100hz out of that box. :wink:
 
Hi Justi,
A couple of questions in 6th and 8th order bandpass boxes...

There are many variations of 6th and 8th order enclosures, which to kinda answer geolemon's question ... I doubt there is a super scientific method to how the various configurations were named which makes it harder to identify which is which by just using words. To make sure we're talking about the same ones, please share a picture of the one you're interested in. For example, one of these:
https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/sixth-and-eighth-order-subwoofer-boxes.asp


My further confusion includes:
If the port(s) create nodes that also limit cone excursion then:

1) How does the sub stay cool in a bandpass if there is limited excursion at/around each control node?

Great question. My only thought is the ported nature allows fresh air exchange with the outside world, allowing the internal box temperature to be cooler than a sealed box. This might be a substantial effect or a tiny one depending on the port non-linearities. Also, if you know the woofer needs to be small excursion then you could optimize the design with a higher BL^2/Re ratio which might make it more energy efficient (1w/1m) to generate less heat in the first place.

2) What causes the impedence to rise at the places of low excursion?
(the inductance and resistance is the same, so is it back EMF?)

I have not studied bandpass and higher-order enclosures as much, but the impedance peaks I have seen are due to back emf when the cone has the greatest velocity (near greatest excursion). There is an impedance minimum in a normal ported enclosure at the box tuning frequency there the velocity is minimum (and excursion is minimum), for example.

3) If ported arraignments have a higher impedence at the frequencies where there is low excursion, then how are they able to sound louder? (as the delivered wattage must be going down proportional to the impedence rise)

I think it's the other way around: low impedance at low velocity (low excursion). See question 2 above.

If one could remove the group delay, then it seems like the main limiter to an "SQ dream" is transient response?

It is possible that one could believe that a bandpass limits distortion, and if that were part of SQ, then could it be worthwhile to consider a bandpass box without any desire for SPL?

If you can remove group delay with a FIR filter like you suggest, then latency will suffer so it becomes harder to sync with video such as watching a movie. You would still need to tackle transient response, yes, and also directivity and timbre and all those other things too but purely in terms of a subwoofer enclosure I think that would be most of the problems yes.
 
I'm not talking about simple delay - like those slick auto-EQ systems sometimes adjust both EQ and distance for time arrival...
I'm talking about group delay, which is a variable by frequency, imposed by the vent - which comes on progressively - and that's the simple description of a normal vented box.
Once you get into a bandpass box, you have two vents, two tuning frequencies, a much more complex group delay plot.
...then an ABC box? I can only imagine the group delay - plus in that case, my belief is you have more group delay from the high-tune chamber, yet you have the direct output of the sub. In that case, I would believe it impossible to DSP out, no matter how fancy your DSP. It's only the bandpass box that I can even fathom it as possible, and I don't think people are doing that often, if ever.

For reference, here's a group delay plot for a simple vented box:
View attachment 11408

Seems like you're both talking about the same thing. A couple super-fancy dsp systems like Dirac and the APL1 use a combination of IIR an FIR filters to correct frequency and phase response so that the impulse response becomes more ideal, which results in the group delay being more ideal (flat) too. The same concepts can be used to correct group delay in a high-order subwoofer enclosure at the expense of latency which I mention in my previous post. I've always wanted to try this.
 
If you want to learn more about higher order subwoofer enclosures, about the most knowledgeable I’ve seen are at data-bass.com though those enclosures are more for high output outdoor venues or high performance home theater. But the concepts scale.
 
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