Ask an Acoustic Engineer (me)

Question: I want to find the different in "box size" between no polyfill and a stuffed box. I have a Dayton DATS and ran the sweet for before and after.

What math can I use to determine the airspace for each? Or if not, the supposed gains the subwoofer sees in volume from the polyfill? I've found people mention you only need Qts and Fs, but others that say you need VAS, others say you need Qtc... Would love some input on that.

Attached is the screenshot difference between the same subwoofer and box, but with 4.5lbs of stuffing (as I calculated a very rough 4.5 cubes in my complex enclosure).
 
Great response to my question Justin and thank you for taking the time to write that. I loved the driving analogy! I’m sure this will help many members here understand the theory. I couldn’t get the DIYMA link to work. I did a bunch of research into regulated vs non regulated amplifiers a long time ago. Not sure if it’s entirely accurate but the consensus was that non regulated power supplies gave amplifiers a slight edge in dynamic power over regulated power supplies but I’m not so sure that would be audible. Just think of the power drop you get when shutting off your engine with the audio playing. Your voltage could go from 14 volts to 12.5 volts yet you likely won’t notice a difference from the reduced power as a result.
 
Great response to my question Justin and thank you for taking the time to write that. I loved the driving analogy! I’m sure this will help many members here understand the theory. I couldn’t get the DIYMA link to work.

I'm happy you were able to read that too. I know you were pretty bummed about not getting an answer earlier!

I fixed the link in the thing. Here it is again, just in case:
www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/how-does-rips-jl-audio-work.89221/page-2#post-1127909

And NoDestiny I'm thinking about your question. We do this at the office too.
 
Thanks Justin, I just read that article now. Very good information there and now I know exactly how RIPS works. I was kind of bummed about the first question, lol. I was like......AHHHH man, lol. Seriously though it’s awesome that you come on here and share your knowledge like this and I really appreciate it. Reminiscent of that old post from msmith and many from Andy Wehmeyer from back in the day.
 
Question: I want to find the different in "box size" between no polyfill and a stuffed box. I have a Dayton DATS and ran the sweet for before and after.

What math can I use to determine the airspace for each? Or if not, the supposed gains the subwoofer sees in volume from the polyfill?

View attachment 10564

There are many ways to calculate this so you might be able to do it with Vas or Qts in a similar way. I like the method I came up with since it's really simple.

You need three measurements with the DATS system by pressing the "measure free air parameters" button, and record the resonant frequency fs for each:
1) measure woofer in free air without any enclosure
2) measure woofer in sealed box without any stuffing
3) measure woofer in sealed box with stuffing

To find the ratio of how much "bigger" the enclosure became from the stuffing that you added, the formula looks like this:

View attachment 10562

To find the air volume of the box, I usually measure the woofer with something like DATS and then simulate it in a sealed box. I change the air volume of the simulated box until the resonant frequency of the box Fc matches the resonant frequency when I measure the woofer in the box using DATS.

You can try to calculate it too, however you must make very careful measurement of the woofer when you do since any errors will multiply when you try to calculate the enclosure volume. The formula looks like this:

View attachment 10563

The units are MKS (meter-kilogram-second) so make sure you convert Sd from square centimeters to square meters, and convert Cms from mm/N to meters/newton and so on. The answer spits out cubic feet. By Fc I mean the resonant frequency of the woofer in the box.

Cool question, I enjoyed working through this one since I can use it at the office more often now : )
 
Just wanted to interject with a video link that has an amp technician walking through to explain this technology.

Also wanted to raise an interesting aspect that relates to both subwoofers and amplifiers, that IMO makes the design of these "constant power" amplifiers actually even more remarkable:
I admit amplifier design is not my specialty...

Non-regulated power supplies will allow the rail voltages to increase or decrease as the battery voltage is increased or decreased...
Regulated power supplies will hold the rail voltages constant when the battery voltage changes...

I was going to write a big thing here but Manville Smith of JL Audio wrote a sweet post over at DIYMA about ten years ago.
How does RIPS (JL Audio) work? post #21
Please read Manville's post, it is really well written and it goes into a lot of really good detail.

In short, the output stage is usually made up of transistors that can supply the speaker with voltage up to the rail voltage limits that the power supply has. The speaker will present an impedance (or a load) and then current will flow.
To add complexity to the challenge - speaker's impedance isn't a constant, it's naturally different at different frequencies, and at a speaker's natural resonance can rise surprisingly high - let's say a 4 ohm subwoofer has an Re of 3.5 ohms and an Fs of 24hz, like this completely random sample I found just because it had a plot...
You can see that impedence rise at Fs - up to 100ohms, maybe more:
View attachment 10572
Want another wrench to throw in the works? That above plot - it completely changes as soon as you put a subwoofer in a box. In a sealed box, it shifts based on the size of your box. In a ported box, the vent has an impact on cone motion which in turn impacts impedance. You could change the height or width of that resonance, or you could add a second high-impedance spike on the plot, again depending on box size and tuning.

The point relative to this "constant power" amp design is - a sub's impedance is all over the place, dynamically, and (from the amp's perspective) unpredictably. That amp is designed to drive one sub in a box as well as another totally different sub in a totally different box, and not impart any false coloration on the frequency response of that sub playing.

Continuing with the car analogy, a given car can drive 65mph on the freeway if the road is flat. The same car will go much slower up a steep hill, even with the gas pedal on the floor. The same car can go much faster than 65mph if you're driving down a steep hill, so fast that it can easily loose control and crash into a fireball and cause the road to be closed and inconvenience literally everyone else in a supremely selfish act of dumbassery.

Relating the car to the amplifier: an amplifier can supply 100watts of power if the impedance of the speaker is a good match (like driving the speed limit on a flat highway). The same amplifier, using the same rail voltage, can supply less power if the speaker impedance is too high (like driving up a steep hill). The same amplifier can supply much more than rated power if the speaker impedance is too low (like driving down a steep hill) and if the impedance is too low then the amplifier can overheat and blow up (like the car going too fast and crashing).
I love the analogies. Definitely driving your amp at too low of a load can cause it to die... I'd call that a car wreck.

It might be fun to take a deeper dive into this "impedance rise" topic, as a lot of people refer to it these days...
I see a lot of SPL competitors these days are actually becoming aware of their impedance plots, and are saying to themselves "Wait up... if my box is tuned to 60hz, and I measured my 1 ohm sub's impedance rises to 16 ohms at 60hz in this box - if my 2000w amp is only making that power at 1 ohm... does that mean my amp is only making... hang on... 2 ohm... 4 ohm... 8 ohm..16 ohm... 125 watts when I'm burping?"
So lately I've seen people wiring to very, very low impedances - 1/4 ohm, I'm sure some people are trying less - so that their amp makes the power their sub can handle at (and ONLY at!!) their burp frequency.

Would be fun to take a deeper dive into the negative consequences - That they've literally created a one-note wonder that would fry it's amp if you fed it anything other than that specific test tone (do people still use "burp buttons"?), and to compound that problem - that they've frequently got to solder across their protection resistors to totally eliminate amp protection (for those amps of this class that have protection) for this to even work at all. But maybe a theoretical dive into the negatives from the speaker perspective?

Constant Power

To get constant power out of an amplifier at 1Ω and 2Ω and 4Ω, you need two main things: 1) enough voltage amplifier power supply so that the power can be realized on the highest impedance load and 2) a current sensing/limiting technique so that the amplifier doesn't overheat or fail when the lowest impedance load is used.

An example amplifier might claim:
100w @ 4Ω
100w @ 2Ω
100w @ 1Ω

To get 100w at 4Ω the rail voltage would have to be
Sam from BareVids is an awesome guy for anyone who wants to understand amplifiers better. I subscribe to his vids, watch them while I'm working - he's a huge distraction, honestly.:lol:

In this particular link, he looks inside a Taramps amp that has a "smart" circuit like the JL RIPS amps.
It's important to know that - for the reasons Justin already described - there's limits to this "smart" technology just like there are limits to normal amplifiers that don't have this kind of design.
So these amp ratings would look like BS to me:
100w @ 4Ω
100w @ 2Ω
100w @ 1Ω
...because that's a big range to actually maintain constant power across.

I'd be betting it would really dyno out more like this:
40w @ 8Ω
80w @ 4Ω
100w @ 2Ω
100w @ 1Ω

Check out Sam's dive into this smart technology - he brings up the waveforms on his scope, so you can actually see the technology work, can see the voltages change, and power change.
It sounds like a deep dive, but Sam does a great job explaining it at a layman level. Definitely worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMGPhNASl4&t=440s

Note that link is actually the 7:25 mark on a Williston Labs review - another guy worth subscribing to IMO - but I subscribe to Sam as well. His channel is "barevids" - don't worry, it's not what that looks like. Nothing NSFW. :lol:
 
It might be fun to take a deeper dive into this "impedance rise" topic, as a lot of people refer to it these days...
I see a lot of SPL competitors these days are actually becoming aware of their impedance plots, and are saying to themselves "Wait up... if my box is tuned to 60hz, and I measured my 1 ohm sub's impedance rises to 16 ohms at 60hz in this box - if my 2000w amp is only making that power at 1 ohm... does that mean my amp is only making... hang on... 2 ohm... 4 ohm... 8 ohm..16 ohm... 125 watts when I'm burping?"
So lately I've seen people wiring to very, very low impedances - 1/4 ohm, I'm sure some people are trying less - so that their amp makes the power their sub can handle at (and ONLY at!!) their burp frequency.

I've heard people doing that too! But wait, there's more!
When playing a high-output burst the voice coil heats up which changes the impedance of the system, which changes the resonant frequency, and on and on. I met a competitor once who mapped this temperature rise and performance change vs time and then created a burp track that started at some frequency (maybe 52hz) and changed frequency over time to match the change in the performance of the system as it heats up over a very short time. This way the frequency of the tone is always matched to the instantaneous resonant frequency of the system for maximum output not just when it starts, but as the system continues pounding over time. This stuff is crazy!

Check out Sam's dive into this smart technology - he brings up the waveforms on his scope, so you can actually see the technology work, can see the voltages change, and power change.
It sounds like a deep dive, but Sam does a great job explaining it at a layman level. Definitely worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMGPhNASl4&t=440s

Thank you for the video link, that was nice to see! I like all the practical bits with the scope traces.
 
So.... Just so I understand at a more "basic" level. :-)

- An amplifier with a "regulated" power supply will provide the same amount of power regardless of the speaker impedance.

- An amplifier with an "un-regulated" power supply will provide less power to speakers with higher impedance.

Are those two statements true?

The reason that I ask is because I'm still not clear why my JL XD600/6v2 (which does NOT have a RIPPS power supply) provides 100W RMS at 2 ohms, but 75W RMS at 4 ohms. Why is there such a small difference between the 2 and 4 ohm outputs? Don't most "un-regulated" amps provide twice the amount of power at 2 ohms (compared to 4 ohms)?

While the JL XD line of amps don't have the "RIPPS" power supplies, do they maybe have some "lesser" version of a regulated power supply instead? I honestly don't know if they are regulated or un-regulated.

Thanks - and sorry if this was already explained earlier - maybe I just didn't understand it.
 
So.... Just so I understand at a more "basic" level. :-)

- An amplifier with a "regulated" power supply will provide the same amount of power regardless of the speaker impedance.
- An amplifier with an "un-regulated" power supply will provide less power to speakers with higher impedance.

Are those two statements true?

Not quite.

The reason that I ask is because I'm still not clear why my JL XD600/6v2 (which does NOT have a RIPPS power supply) provides 100W RMS at 2 ohms, but 75W RMS at 4 ohms. Why is there such a small difference between the 2 and 4 ohm outputs? Don't most "un-regulated" amps provide twice the amount of power at 2 ohms (compared to 4 ohms)?

While the JL XD line of amps don't have the "RIPPS" power supplies, do they maybe have some "lesser" version of a regulated power supply instead? I honestly don't know if they are regulated or un-regulated.

Thanks - and sorry if this was already explained earlier - maybe I just didn't understand it.

I'm not sure how the XD amplifier from JL works. However, the regulated vs non-regulated power supply usually means the power output can vary when the battery voltage changes. Usually, as I understand it, this effect will not show up in the specs when you look at power ratings vs impedance so the non-regulated nature of the amplifier isn't responsible for the 100w@2Ω vs 75w@4Ω thing. I think. Again, I can't speak for the JL line of amps.
 
In an amplifier with a non regulated power supply if the power doesn’t double when the impedance load gets cut in half then it’s because the power supply isn’t designed for this and runs out of current capacity before it can. This is how I understand it. In the interest of efficiency and amplifier size reduction, plus cost savings, many of today’s modern amplifiers have power supplies that are on the small side of things compared to the golden age of huge surfboard class AB amplifiers from years ago.
 
I guess I just assumed that a JL Audio XD amp wouldn't "skimp" on the power supply. I mean they are not "cheap" amps. Hell, I paid more $$$ for half the power (compared to an AudioControl LC-6.1200, for example). Kind of sucks that I only "gain" 25W going from 4 ohms to 2 ohms.

Looks like the AudioControl LC-6.1200 goes from 125W x 6 (4 ohms) to 200W x 6 (2 ohms). So I could have paid less $$$ and got twice the power (if running 2 ohms). Oh well... I do like the JL Audio XD amps otherwise - and it's not like I really need more volume - but I just think it would be nice to have a little more power for the midbass channels, which are the volume-limiting channels in my system.

Any thoughts on the JL XD series amp vs the AudioControl LC-series amps?

When trying to decide which amp to go with (JL X600/6v2 or AudioControl LC-6.1200), I decided on the JL Audio because of JL's reputation as well as the fact that the AudioControl had all kinds of features that I just didn't need since I was going to run fully active with a full DSP - and you couldn't bypass all of the high/low pass filters on all channels with the AudioControl. Not the end of the world, but I figured that the less "circuitry" the signal has to go through, the better chance of clean, noise-free output.

Thanks for all of the info!!
 
So.... Just so I understand at a more "basic" level. :-)

- An amplifier with a "regulated" power supply will provide the same amount of power regardless of the speaker impedance.

- An amplifier with an "un-regulated" power supply will provide less power to speakers with higher impedance.

Are those two statements true?

The reason that I ask is because I'm still not clear why my JL XD600/6v2 (which does NOT have a RIPPS power supply) provides 100W RMS at 2 ohms, but 75W RMS at 4 ohms. Why is there such a small difference between the 2 and 4 ohm outputs? Don't most "un-regulated" amps provide twice the amount of power at 2 ohms (compared to 4 ohms)?

While the JL XD line of amps don't have the "RIPPS" power supplies, do they maybe have some "lesser" version of a regulated power supply instead? I honestly don't know if they are regulated or un-regulated.

Thanks - and sorry if this was already explained earlier - maybe I just didn't understand it.

In the old days, an amplifier with a regulated power supply would produce the same amount of power at 12 volts as it would at 14 volts. It would just draw more current at the lower voltage. An amplifier with an unregulated power supply would produce more power at 14 volts than it would at 12 volts.
 
Jtrosky, JL Audio amplifiers dyno really well so I think you’re getting more than what’s rated by a good margin plus there are things about amplifiers that are as important or more important than just the total power output. https://youtu.be/UsLUeO33DgE
 
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I guess I just assumed that a JL Audio XD amp wouldn't "skimp" on the power supply. I mean they are not "cheap" amps. Hell, I paid more $$$ for half the power (compared to an AudioControl LC-6.1200, for example). Kind of sucks that I only "gain" 25W going from 4 ohms to 2 ohms.

Looks like the AudioControl LC-6.1200 goes from 125W x 6 (4 ohms) to 200W x 6 (2 ohms). So I could have paid less $$$ and got twice the power (if running 2 ohms). Oh well... I do like the JL Audio XD amps otherwise - and it's not like I really need more volume - but I just think it would be nice to have a little more power for the midbass channels, which are the volume-limiting channels in my system.

Any thoughts on the JL XD series amp vs the AudioControl LC-series amps?

When trying to decide which amp to go with (JL X600/6v2 or AudioControl LC-6.1200), I decided on the JL Audio because of JL's reputation as well as the fact that the AudioControl had all kinds of features that I just didn't need since I was going to run fully active with a full DSP - and you couldn't bypass all of the high/low pass filters on all channels with the AudioControl. Not the end of the world, but I figured that the less "circuitry" the signal has to go through, the better chance of clean, noise-free output.

Thanks for all of the info!!
I believe the "regulated" power supply is only regulating the power input, the "RIPS" was an output side regulation. I'm quite fond of the XD series, I've got two of the 400/4's. But I agree they're a little low on power for midbass duty, that's why I have 2 channels bridged on each mid.
 
Hey Justin or any acoustic engineers,

I would like to hear more discussion or breakdown on stereo stages involving a 3rd center channel. Yes we know the standard 2 channel R and L stereo creates a proper center image when properly aligned. We know that when introducing a mono sum center R+L, the stage width will severely collapse due to the same R and L information coming from both the center and the sides speakers.

View attachment 10642


But with stronger DSP options becoming available I wanted to hear more about what the shortcomings of the following center channel schemes would present to listeners when compared to the standard 2 channel stereo scheme. We know the 1st scheme collapses the stereo stage width, but what can be generally expected from the last 3 schemes? I could be wrong but I believe the 2nd scheme is what Audiocontrol used to implement for their discontinued ESP-3 center channel processor. The last 2 schemes are assuming the center channel is derived via an up-mixer with an algorithm to steer only common information in both R and L to the C channel (like Logic 7, Pro Logic 2, or Helix RealCenter).

View attachment 10643

*For comparison sake, let’s assume the listener is in central listening position and all 3 speakers are the same.
 
Hey Justin or any acoustic engineers,

I would like to hear more discussion or breakdown on stereo stages involving a 3rd center channel.

Those are some good questions but they are beyond me for now. I recommend looking at the original Dolby Pro Logic circuits wince they are well documented and heavily discussed. There are also a lot of psychoacoustic studies done and published in the AES E-Journal that would be fun to read. If you find a couple papers that you'd like to read, let me know and I'll see if I can get them. Pro tip: the AES wants you to pay for the papers but you can contact the authors directly and if you ask nicely, they will send you a copy for free (I've done this a few times and made some good friends!).

I would like to learn more about this too.
Andy Wehmeyer has a lot more center-channel knowledge and he would be a good person to ask!
 
When playing a high-output burst the voice coil heats up which changes the impedance of the system, which changes the resonant frequency, and on and on. I met a competitor once who mapped this temperature rise and performance change vs time and then created a burp track that started at some frequency (maybe 52hz) and changed frequency over time to match the change in the performance of the system as it heats up over a very short time. This way the frequency of the tone is always matched to the instantaneous resonant frequency of the system for maximum output not just when it starts, but as the system continues pounding over time. This stuff is crazy!

That actually makes me think of a certain manufacturer (coughDDcough) who disclaimers their specifications saying that they don't accurately represent how "their" drivers behave on power.
It's a different thing, but definitely in the same vein as "the deeper you dive, the more complex it gets":

Part of me wants to agree with them - I was lucky enough to get to personally visit DLC Labs to meet Dave Clark in person and have some of my prototype subs tested on their DUMAX machine - specifically because it actually manipulates the driver using vacuum across the whole excursion range, to not only provide small-signal specs at the "at rest" position, but also across the entire range, so you can see linearity. We were licensing XBL^2 back in the mid 90's, specifically for that linearity, and I wanted to see if the suspensions that I chose were a good match for a motor design we already settled on. We wanted to design a subwoofer that was linear - so the specs on that sheet WERE good, at least until you got to Xmax - which we wanted to be way out there.

Essentially, DD's statement is basically saying "our subs aren't linear", which - I mean, fine. I had a 9915 back in the day, and it literally had a stack of glued-together spiders to control all that moving mass that an SPL sub needs to have, on the power that they expect an SPL sub to be burped at... and no one cares about linearity in the lanes. You want BL... that basically means ALL the coils in the gap at rest! :lol:

And ironically in a different way, in a different DD "tech talk" post, they DO advocate breaking in a sub - which, while that wouldn't fix linearity issues, it would at least somewhat resolve the initial "at rest" vs "in motion" point that they are actually making. I wish there was a comment thread below their blog, for people to say "Just break in your subs, THEN measure the official specs!" ...but clearly I'm no fan of gluing together stacks of spiders - that's not how a "multi-layer spider" is supposed to be IMO.

Now, your comment does make me think though - even using a DUMAX machine, it's still small signal analysis - so, to your point - no heat.
I'm past my sub engineering days (IT consulting pays better), but it makes me wonder - if we did a second DUMAX run after running the sub at rated RMS power for 15 minutes or so to bring the temperature up to the rated maximum, and then measured it - how far would the parameters shift? :hmm:

Great point - and I'd expect those SPL nutcases to take those measurements after heat rise. It's actually the geek-level stuff that can make SPL fun. :cool: Well - to me. :nerd:
 
Hey Justin or any acoustic engineers,

I would like to hear more discussion or breakdown on stereo stages involving a 3rd center channel...

But with stronger DSP options becoming available I wanted to hear more about what the shortcomings of the following center channel schemes would present to listeners...

View attachment 10643
I would like to learn more about this too.
I would as well - and I'd also advocate Bnlcmbcar to do some searching some of the DIY audio forums that have home theater sections.

From the diagrams that you posted, I'd be concerned as you are (especially in a car) that you'd narrow the image, because you are pulling some of the L and R content into the center - which, most troublingly - brings some of the L content to your R side, if you are in the driver's seat. Conversely, for a passenger, brings some of the R content to the L of them. Eek.

What I'd like to see in a center channel for a car, would be "(L+R)-(L-R)". That way, it's only bringing the content from both speakers to the center, and even if there's a little content that's on both channels but simply louder on one than the other, it still mitigates that by attenuating that sound at the center channel. I'd believe that would at least help keep the stage width - hopefully as wide as with just a stereo pair.

But I think really, in a car, the KISS rule applies... there's already glass, and absorbant upholstery, and plastic, all pointing different directions - you could have ONE speaker in a car and end up with a nightmare of multiple pathlength distances, direct and reflected (with each of those having a 180 degree shift - plus pathlength difference offset!) creating anything but a flat response as it arrives at your ears. :lol:

So I subscribe to the "the fewer speakers the better" theory for car audio. There's exceptions - for example, three way components where you actually aim the mid and tweeter - can provide better imaging. But my default recommendation is simplicity over complexity, for those pathlength reasons.

I'm really interested in this myself, but in no way for creating a center channel (IMO, there's already enough direct and reflected pathlength sounds wreaking havoc on image-killing phase interactions as they all ultimately arrive at the listening position)...
I want to make a "L-(L+R)" channel and a "R-(L+R)" channel to add some rear fill (something I otherwise also don't believe in, for those same image-killing phase interaction reasons) plus some additional delay, so I'm going to be researching this soon myself. My DSP will only help with delay and passband. I'd be interested if you find any good threads.
 
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