Ask an Acoustic Engineer (me)

Not a dumb question.

I used to be super crazy careful about amplifier gain settings and I used an oscilloscope and everything. I realized a single sine tone can be hit or miss like you mention because there might be boosts or cuts all over the place. So then I did a sweep and looked for the hottest frequency (electrically at the speaker terminals) then I used that sine tone to set the gains.

Later I realized if you set gains, then tune, chances are you're going to make a lot of cuts and so your gain structure will not be what you thought it was. The system can wind up a lot more quiet than you intended.

How often has this happened: you set gains, you spend all day tuning until it's just right, you either share with a friend or you listen the next day, you realize it is not loud enough, you adjust the gains, you spend all day tuning until it's just right .... and round and round.

I like one of Andy's recent posts about setting gains last. I wound up with a very similar idea before I saw his post. In short it goes like this:
-if your system is not loud enough, increase gains.
-if you system has too much noise floor or hiss, reduce gains.

There are many ways to get fancy about finding the balance between loudness and quality but many of them are difficult or impossible with simple tools like REW. I find the ears are the best tool for the job unless you don't know what to listen for, then you borrow your friends' ears.



I'm not sure how the DD-1 works, but the C.L.E.A.N. gain setting lights on the Rockford amps I use are pretty reliable no matter what I'm doing. A linear sweep might not be a bad idea, but similar to above I think it's a bit overkill unless you have no other way to listen for it.



You could, but setting gains is usually hunting for a threshold of clipping the input or output of a device and then looking for the resulting distortion to see when you found the threshold. White noise or any continuous noise would be a poor choice since distortion is much harder to see unless you have really sophisticated (read expensive) tools.

Not a dumb question.

I used to be super crazy careful about amplifier gain settings and I used an oscilloscope and everything. I realized a single sine tone can be hit or miss like you mention because there might be boosts or cuts all over the place. So then I did a sweep and looked for the hottest frequency (electrically at the speaker terminals) then I used that sine tone to set the gains.

Later I realized if you set gains, then tune, chances are you're going to make a lot of cuts and so your gain structure will not be what you thought it was. The system can wind up a lot more quiet than you intended.

How often has this happened: you set gains, you spend all day tuning until it's just right, you either share with a friend or you listen the next day, you realize it is not loud enough, you adjust the gains, you spend all day tuning until it's just right .... and round and round.

I like one of Andy's recent posts about setting gains last. I wound up with a very similar idea before I saw his post. In short it goes like this:
-if your system is not loud enough, increase gains.
-if you system has too much noise floor or hiss, reduce gains.

There are many ways to get fancy about finding the balance between loudness and quality but many of them are difficult or impossible with simple tools like REW. I find the ears are the best tool for the job unless you don't know what to listen for, then you borrow your friends' ears.



I'm not sure how the DD-1 works, but the C.L.E.A.N. gain setting lights on the Rockford amps I use are pretty reliable no matter what I'm doing. A linear sweep might not be a bad idea, but similar to above I think it's a bit overkill unless you have no other way to listen for it.



You could, but setting gains is usually hunting for a threshold of clipping the input or output of a device and then looking for the resulting distortion to see when you found the threshold. White noise or any continuous noise would be a poor choice since distortion is much harder to see unless you have really sophisticated (read expensive) tools.

Thanks, Justin. I laughed when you described the scenario of tuning and then realizing it’s too soft (sometimes I have had it be too loud) and then having to adjust the gains. It’s funny (and reassuring) to hear that this is not an uncommon experience (as I have experienced it for sure, many times). Thanks!


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Thanks, Justin. I laughed when you described the scenario of tuning and then realizing it’s too soft (sometimes I have had it be too loud) and then having to adjust the gains. It’s funny (and reassuring) to hear that this is not an uncommon experience (as I have experienced it for sure, many times). Thanks!


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After many conversations with Andy and with Justin, I've kind of modified Andy's (and Justin's) gain setting with Skizer's advice. I set my tweeter/mid gains at a maximum without noise. As in, if I turn up the gain on the amp any louder, I am going to get too much noise for my personal preference. I lower gains in the DSP like Andy suggests (-12db input, and -12db on output). I then use my RTA and adjust the other gains to match the curve to whichever speaker (tweeter or mid) that was the lowest output without noise.

I then tune and raise the input side on the dsp first and then the output side if I am not happy with the volume level. I know that I can't turn up my amp gains any more because that would just introduce more noise into my tweeters/mids.

Note: This is with a high pass on my midbass of around 100hz and if you read Andy's info on how much power speakers actually get with music/pink noise, how a crossover drops it either -3db (butterworth) or -6db (Linkwitz) MORE at the crossover point, it will help to understand why I am not worried about sending a 0db test tone to any of these speakers and checking for clipping the amps outputs. I am willing to bet that none of these speakers will EVER see any musical note that is 0db.

If we assume an 80hz high pass, the music will be down about -6db at that point naturally. If you throw in a Butterworth or Linkwitz filter you are looking at -9db with a Butterworth or -12db with a Linkwitz at 80hz.

Here is what pink noise (and most of music) does assuming we start with 0db at 20hz.
20hz 0db
40hz -3db
80hz -6d
160hz -9db
320hz -12db
640hz -15db
1280hz -18db
2560hz -21db
5120hz -24db
10240hz -27db
20480hz -30db

Here is a song analysis of one of the "worst" songs I could find that had the most 0db tones. It is Billie Eilish "Bad Guy".
90416000_10107131425273605_1078238766428061696_o.jpg



Here is a good chart for power and music (same as the pink noise stuff above, just puts it in terms of power)

70591507_2814393608591959_6618078350076280832_n.jpg
 
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Hey Justin,

In the case of tweeters pointed up at a windshield, what does this do to the sound? Obviously it makes it reflected, but does it color it any way? Disperse it? How can it affect imaging? Any reason other than convenience or cost that an OEM would do this? Does a location like this require anything from a tweeter or other speaker? (In order to sound good)

Thanks!


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Hey Justin,

In the case of tweeters pointed up at a windshield, what does this do to the sound? Obviously it makes it reflected, but does it color it any way? Disperse it? How can it affect imaging? Any reason other than convenience or cost that an OEM would do this? Does a location like this require anything from a tweeter or other speaker? (In order to sound good)

Thanks!

Courtesy of ErinH. The main thing you need to handle is the angle of the speaker to the windshield so the sound comes off properly and not too shallow or steep.

http://www.jjracoustics.com/128-AES_2010.pdf
 
After many conversations with Andy and with Justin, I've kind of modified Andy's (and Justin's) gain setting with Skizer's advice. I set my tweeter/mid gains at a maximum without noise. As in, if I turn up the gain on the amp any louder, I am going to get too much noise for my personal preference. I lower gains in the DSP like Andy suggests (-12db input, and -12db on output). I then use my RTA and adjust the other gains to match the curve to whichever speaker (tweeter or mid) that was the lowest output without noise.

I then tune and raise the input side on the dsp first and then the output side if I am not happy with the volume level. I know that I can't turn up my amp gains any more because that would just introduce more noise into my tweeters/mids.

Note: This is with a high pass on my midbass of around 100hz and if you read Andy's info on how much power speakers actually get with music/pink noise, how a crossover drops it either -3db (butterworth) or -6db (Linkwitz) MORE at the crossover point, it will help to understand why I am not worried about sending a 0db test tone to any of these speakers and checking for clipping the amps outputs. I am willing to bet that none of these speakers will EVER see any musical note that is 0db.

If we assume an 80hz high pass, the music will be down about -6db at that point naturally. If you throw in a Butterworth or Linkwitz filter you are looking at -9db with a Butterworth or -12db with a Linkwitz at 80hz.

Here is what pink noise (and most of music) does assuming we start with 0db at 20hz.
20hz 0db
40hz -3db
80hz -6d
160hz -9db
320hz -12db
640hz -15db
1280hz -18db
2560hz -21db
5120hz -24db
10240hz -27db
20480hz -30db

Here is a song analysis of one of the "worst" songs I could find that had the most 0db tones. It is Billie Eilish "Bad Guy".
90416000_10107131425273605_1078238766428061696_o.jpg



Here is a good chart for power and music (same as the pink noise stuff above, just puts it in terms of power)

70591507_2814393608591959_6618078350076280832_n.jpg

Great info, jdunk. Thanks for sharing your process for setting gains. Having it laid out step by step like that helps it make a lot of sense (and of course helps me reproduce it). Much appreciated!


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Hey Justin,

In the case of tweeters pointed up at a windshield, what does this do to the sound? Obviously it makes it reflected, but does it color it any way? Disperse it? How can it affect imaging? Any reason other than convenience or cost that an OEM would do this? Does a location like this require anything from a tweeter or other speaker? (In order to sound good)

I really like the paper that dgage linked. Can you take a look at that one and then come back with more questions?
 
Or clipping has tremendous amounts of high-frequency energy and it will melt your tweeter.


dOsyjWNh.png


Excuse the terrible drawing :-)

I played with a scope and amp once to see just what actually happens when the amp clips. Most people think the red line is what happens, but my testing showed that it's much more like the orange line. I think the short spikes could get to the tweeters through a passive crossover and damage them, but I never felt like blowing up gear to test that theory.
 
dOsyjWNh.png


Excuse the terrible drawing :-)

I played with a scope and amp once to see just what actually happens when the amp clips. Most people think the red line is what happens, but my testing showed that it's much more like the orange line. I think the short spikes could get to the tweeters through a passive crossover and damage them, but I never felt like blowing up gear to test that theory.

You will find this interesting about clipping..it's by Andy.
https://www.facebook.com/100000640424726/posts/2811673685530618/?d=n

This is also from my oscope.

View attachment 10130

View attachment 10131
 
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I'm not sure where non-round speakers first got a bad name. I'm guessing the first non-round speakers were relatively immature models that didn't perform well, or maybe oval speakers have a stigma of being "oem" so therefore they must be junk.

I think oval speakers are mature enough now that they perform well and they can get you more cone area in a space that wouldn't otherwise be practical. For example we make a 6x9" woofer that fits in the top of the saddlebags on motorcycles.

View attachment 9984
These speakers make excellent use of the available space and I've been tuning something similar with stellar results.

I like them for the most part since you can get more sound out of a similar size hole. They can be tricky to simulate in terms of off-axis response for all of the discussion you're having above though. Also, oval speakers require more sophisticated tools to model the off-axis frequency response and by more sophisticated I mean more expensive and sometimes time consuming. I think non-round speakers are mature enough at this point that they offer a solid deal and they are starting to catch on as a way to get a "bigger" speaker in a similar space.

I also get tripped up on the 5x7" ovals because that's a common size to print photographs which is another hobby of mine!
I'm happy to see the bike audio mentioned. Installing/tuning my Harley's setup was my first "real" audio experience from when I was a young bass head that turned it to "11"lol.

I'm curious to how much of a difference running different speakers in the saddlebags causes issues. I'm currently running a mid-range 8" in the lid with 8" mid-bass facing the rear wheel. I'd like to bump up to 10s facing the rear wheel which should require me to separate the air space from my lid (debating sealing the bag itself, switching lid 8 to a compression driver, or just leave it alone and focus on my car audio install lol)



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bcb8d711b88022a91f77e82958568d16.jpg
 
Justin, I think I was on to something. I swapped my sub and enclosure for a down firing shallow sub. Everything now sounds balanced and accurate. I really do think that the sound waves were colliding and cancelling themselves out.
 
Ok Justin I have one for you. Why do some amplifiers double their power from 4 to 2 ohms and some do not? What is the difference in the power supply? For example I’ve noticed that many Kicker amplifiers literal double their power from 4 ohms to 2 ohms. How come Rockford Fosgate amplifiers do not double their power like Kicker?
 
Ok Justin I have one for you. Why do some amplifiers double their power from 4 to 2 ohms and some do not? What is the difference in the power supply? For example I’ve noticed that many Kicker amplifiers literal double their power from 4 ohms to 2 ohms. How come Rockford Fosgate amplifiers do not double their power like Kicker?
Great question. My JL Audio XD600/6V2 amp is like that. Going from 4 ohms to 2 ohms only gives me 100w RMS instead of the normal 75w RMS.... I assumed it was something to do with class D amps, but no idea really...
 
Ok Justin I have one for you. Why do some amplifiers double their power from 4 to 2 ohms and some do not? What is the difference in the power supply? For example I’ve noticed that many Kicker amplifiers literal double their power from 4 ohms to 2 ohms. How come Rockford Fosgate amplifiers do not double their power like Kicker?

I admit amplifier design is not my specialty. Everyone please be careful quoting what I write below since I still have a lot to learn.
JCsAudio might enjoy this since I ducked a question earlier. I've been thinking about it ever since though!

Amplifiers have two parts that can affect the power output: power supply stage and output stage. The power supply can be regulated or not, and the output stage can be "smart" or "dumb".

Power Supply (the voltage side of Ohms law)

Non-regulated power supplies will allow the rail voltages to increase or decrease as the battery voltage is increased or decreased. If the battery voltage goes up or down, then the "power" output of the amplifier can go up and down. This is how many amplifiers on the market work and I believe the "P.O.W.E.R. Supply" on the Rockford Prime amplifiers work this way. Non-regulated power supplies, as I understand it, can be an advantage in some SPL competitions because your amplifier will increase power output if you increase the battery voltage which leads to more more deebeez. An analogy would be holding your foot steady on the gas pedal of your car and your car's speed will change depending on if you have a tailwind or if you drive into a headwind. The speed of the car (similar to the power output of the amplifier) will depend on the road conditions (similar to the battery supply voltage) if you hold the gas pedal constant (like a non-regulated power supply).

Regulated power supplies will hold the rail voltages constant when the battery voltage changes. If your battery voltage sags while you're cranking your engine or your battery is weak and your headlights are dimming with the music, then the amplifier will attempt to keep the rail voltage constant by dynamically adjusting how much energy it is drawing from the electrical system. Using the car analogy, this would be the equivalent of cruise control where the vehicle speed is held constant by adjusting the gas pedal automatically based on the changing road conditions. This is also hilarious on the freeway since people don't do a good job maintaining their speed and they will speed up and slow down to pass you over and over again. It's hilarious when you have nothing else to do on a long drive.

Output Stage (the current side of Ohms law)

I was going to write a big thing here but Manville Smith of JL Audio wrote a sweet post over at DIYMA about ten years ago.
How does RIPS (JL Audio) work? post #21
Please read Manville's post, it is really well written and it goes into a lot of really good detail.

In short, the output stage is usually made up of transistors that can supply the speaker with voltage up to the rail voltage limits that the power supply has. The speaker will present an impedance (or a load) and then current will flow. The output stage is always designed with a current limit in mind. If the speaker's impedance is too low, then too much current is passed through the output stage to the speaker and the output transistors will overheat and -if you're lucky- trigger an over-temperature protection circuit. Or the power supply will be unable to keep up and it will overheat and (hopefully) trigger an over-temperature protection circuit.

Continuing with the car analogy, a given car can drive 65mph on the freeway if the road is flat. The same car will go much slower up a steep hill, even with the gas pedal on the floor. The same car can go much faster than 65mph if you're driving down a steep hill, so fast that it can easily loose control and crash into a fireball and cause the road to be closed and inconvenience literally everyone else in a supremely selfish act of dumbassery.

Relating the car to the amplifier: an amplifier can supply 100watts of power if the impedance of the speaker is a good match (like driving the speed limit on a flat highway). The same amplifier, using the same rail voltage, can supply less power if the speaker impedance is too high (like driving up a steep hill). The same amplifier can supply much more than rated power if the speaker impedance is too low (like driving down a steep hill) and if the impedance is too low then the amplifier can overheat and blow up (like the car going too fast and crashing).

A "dumb" output stage might just let the amplifier overheat and blow up. A less dumber amplifier might sense the temperature is getting too high and shut down similar to truck driver taking the "runaway truck" offramp and ditching the truck in the gravel. A "smart" amplifier might sense the current being delivered to the speaker is too high and then do *something* to reduce the current of the output stage so that nothing Bad happens.

Constant Power

To get constant power out of an amplifier at 1Ω and 2Ω and 4Ω, you need two main things: 1) enough voltage amplifier power supply so that the power can be realized on the highest impedance load and 2) a current sensing/limiting technique so that the amplifier doesn't overheat or fail when the lowest impedance load is used.

An example amplifier might claim:
100w @ 4Ω
100w @ 2Ω
100w @ 1Ω

To get 100w at 4Ω the rail voltage would have to be 20 volts (see ohms law). In this setup, the output stage would deliver 5amps of current to the speaker.

When you attach a 2Ω speaker then your 20v rail voltage will attempt to deliver 10amps of current to the speaker which is 200w of power. One of two Bad™ things happen: the output stage transistors will overheat from too much current or the power supply stage which was designed to handle 100w will overheat when it tries to deliver twice that much power.

The "smart" amplifier will sense the 10amps of current in the output stage and then make an adjustment so that the amplifier is capable of delivering 100w instead of 200w. The amplifier can do this many ways and I think the JL RIPS technology will step down the amplifier rail voltage. In this case the rail voltage might go from 20v down to 14.1v so that a 2Ω load would only require 7amps of current from the amplifier output stage which is in the safe operating range of the transistors, and the amplifier will deliver 100w of power which is in the safe operating range of the power supply stage.

Another way the amplifier could reduce the current in the output stage is to lower the volume of the audio signal by some amount. In this case a reduction of -3dB in audio volume would result in half power, or going from a potential 10a down to 5a and a potential 200w down to 100w.

This technique can continue down to some low impedance threshold where the current required from the output transistors becomes too high. For example a 0.5Ω load would use 7volts and 14amps of current. If the transistors are only capable of 10amps of current, then the system would either sense the over-current condition and go into protect or it might limit itself to ~70w of output or something else completely .... but you won't get 100w out of the amplifier anymore.

The trick of all this is to use a "smart" output stage that can sense the over-power condition and correct for it in a way that keeps the amplifier safe and also fools the user into never hearing a difference. These kinds of techniques can also be used for over-temperature protection too since any kind of power roll-back like this will reduce the heat the amplifier generates. This could be triggered not just by a lower-impedance speaker but maybe by installing an amplifier in a super clever spot underneath all the carpet and trim panels in your car where it can't breathe and the heat gets trapped.

Well, so much for "not writing a big thing" and "in short..." haha
 
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