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Thread: High Quality Signal Sources

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    A Refined Basshead blockrocker's Avatar
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    High Quality Signal Sources

    I was hoping to start a little discussion on signal sources other than headunits. I'm a little bit behind the curve with this stuff, since the last time I was into car audio seriously, 90% of today's options simply didn't exist for car audio applications. With so many options available now, I'm wondering what the best way of maximizing my SQ is. Audiogal has posted about her phone to dsp hookup in another thread, using lightning/hdmi and hdmi/toslink converters to essentially bypass the cd player. She seems to like it a lot, plus its a fairly inexpensive and high quality way of getting the most out of her gear.

    Dumdum has also been an advocate of the Topping D10 DAC, which also seems like a great way to improve the SQ for a slightly more expensive option (but still well priced). At the moment I am using my phone to bluetooth spotify to the headunit. Then I use the usb port to listen to my stored music. I know this is not my best SQ option, especially with a DSP.3. My cd player is a Kenwood ddx395, it does the trick but I am far from in love with it. My phone is a Samsung A8, which includes a headphone jack and USB-c plug. I have zero experience with any other source. So maybe people can share what their setup is in the car and what they like and don't like about it. Personally, I do most of my listening with Spotify, but would love to hear how you folks do it.

    What do you use as a music source? How do you integrate your phone into your car? What's the ideal way to get the best signal to the DSP? Is a 3.5mm jack to rca wire linking phone to dsp as good as usb-c to hdmi to toslink? Feel free to drop your 2 cents in, I'd love to learn more!

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Samsung s9+ to audioquest dragonfly cobalt (using usb audio player pro) to sony rsxGs9 ,sony rsx is pretty good as dac as analog but with modern vehicles it was better to go optical so I added the dragonfly few months ago it sounds great,I kept the sony rsx to keep the signal clean to the amps.but yeah if you want to keep your phone as source then dragonfly cobalt as dac is great combo with it

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Quote Originally Posted by Asdcreation View Post
    Samsung s9+ to audioquest dragonfly cobalt (using usb audio player pro) to sony rsxGs9 ,sony rsx is pretty good as dac as analog but with modern vehicles it was better to go optical so I added the dragonfly few months ago it sounds great,I kept the sony rsx to keep the signal clean to the amps.but yeah if you want to keep your phone as source then dragonfly cobalt as dac is great combo with it
    the Sony’s dac is actually crap in measurements, the dac is a huge bottleneck, better from optical, but a topping d10 at 100 makes it look awful, even the 9 dollar lightening to 3.5mm that you get with iPhones free measures better than the Sony’s in built dac, although the iPhone dac is actually very, very good in itself, just a bit low on voltage output from memory, but very low output impedence at 1 ohm

    the red line is actually an Apple usb c to 3.5mm, but the adaptors below it are mostly way, way more expensive, the lightening did slightly better from memory
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    Last edited by dumdum; 01-02-2020 at 07:38 AM.

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    I would think that using Spotify as a source would be the main sound-quality limiter - not the DA/AD converters being used, wouldn't it?

    Can most people actually hear the difference between different AD/DA converters without some super high-end system and/or measurements (assuming the source was exactly the same)?

    These are genuine questions as I'm not familiar with how much the AD/DA converters actually effect sound quality - or if most people can *really* hear the difference.

    Personally, for me, I'm not willing to lose the head-unit control of my system. I would never be happy with having to control things like volume, track switching, track searching/selection, etc from a non-headunit device. Just too "clunky" for me personally. I have a nice big 8.4" touchscreen in my car with full voice controls as well - it would be silly not to use it and instead use some external small-screen device connected by wires to control things - but that is just me and *my* preferences - everyone is different.

    All of that being said, with a DSP.3, I would think that a HEC USB add-on would provide the best possible quality - I think you could go wired from your phone directly to the DSP.3. They also sell a Bluetooth HEC add-on which would allow you to go directly from phone to Helix wirelessly via bluetooth.

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Sub'd

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Quote Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
    I would think that using Spotify as a source would be the main sound-quality limiter - not the DA/AD converters being used, wouldn't it?

    Can most people actually hear the difference between different AD/DA converters without some super high-end system and/or measurements (assuming the source was exactly the same)?

    These are genuine questions as I'm not familiar with how much the AD/DA converters actually effect sound quality - or if most people can *really* hear the difference.

    Personally, for me, I'm not willing to lose the head-unit control of my system. I would never be happy with having to control things like volume, track switching, track searching/selection, etc from a non-headunit device. Just too "clunky" for me personally. I have a nice big 8.4" touchscreen in my car with full voice controls as well - it would be silly not to use it and instead use some external small-screen device connected by wires to control things - but that is just me and *my* preferences - everyone is different.

    All of that being said, with a DSP.3, I would think that a HEC USB add-on would provide the best possible quality - I think you could go wired from your phone directly to the DSP.3. They also sell a Bluetooth HEC add-on which would allow you to go directly from phone to Helix wirelessly via bluetooth.
    i use tidal with a fair few master quality albums at 96khz, and I use the topping as a usb to coaxial digital output so no d/a involved bar the output of the helix

    to answer your question on the helix usb hec, I have one, but last time I tried the usb hec wouldn’t play with my iPhone so it’s a none option for me, but from others who have tried it they don’t have the detail and resolution of something like the topping

    the Bluetooth hec does work, but can’t stream anything more than way reduced quality as it’s Bluetooth, and even though it’s Bluetooth 5.0 codecs can’t get near to cd quality (APTX hd can, but isn’t used by much currently), so wired is the way forward until they bring out the audiostage unit which streams over WiFi and therefore has the bandwidth to stream very hires files if you have a capable source

    I know in my own system I have measured my alpine 178bt with usb and bluetooth vs bt hec vs wired via a topping d10

    results on initial listen were interesting, it sounded like the topping had the most detail, followed by the bt hec followed by the alpine which sounds identical using bt or usb, now I was expecting to find frequency response differences in mid range perhaps or the top end to explain what sounded like more detail...

    Now on measuring I was shocked! From 200 to 19.5khz the response was identical...

    above that I had 7-8db difference at 20khz

    then I scrolled to the other end of the scale, with the topping with its flat response I had 12db more at 10hz, and 6db more at 20hz, this tapers down to roughly 200hz, I was blown away and had always put my lane bottom end down to poor transfer function in my sq vehicle

    the bt hec has about half that difference at 20hz with 4db at ten hz and again the alpine was low at the bottom end, far from the +/-3db alpine claim from 20-20khz as the topping is a known entity and is flat from 10-22khz+ Which is how I deduce the alpine either has a subsonic on it or it’s bass frequency response is poor and rolls off as does the treble

    i fully intend to make a dock for my iPhone and hide the gubbins and wiring behind the dash so it’s a tidy installed solution and will be put where it is most to hand, I’d considered putting it in the centre of the steering wheel and using the clock spring to run digital cables through to the dash

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    I went through some tests when upgrading my 2009 335i E92 and found the best playback source quality I had available was when using my iPhone 11 Pro Max and my Oppo HA-2SE Portable Headphone Amp via the line-out of the Oppo to AUX in of the car.

    The Oppo allows me to tap directly into the digital audio signal of my iPhone and converts the audio to analog using the SABRE32 Reference DAC. I haven’t tried them but it also supports high-resolution music playback apps and the HA-2SE does not require the use of a Camera Connection Kit (CCK). The supplied Lightning cable is sufficient.

    I had the headphone amp already and use the HA-2SE with headphones at home so wouldn’t want to permanently install it in my car and I lose steering wheel and head unit control that I get when using the Y-Cable with my iPhone 11 or iPhone 3, dedicated as an iPod in a snap in adapter. I save my CD’s to iTunes using Apple Lossless. I have also converted the iTunes Library to WAV and MP3 and saved them to USB drives. The WAV files are preferred but I lose tagging.

    As I finalize my X6 build, Audiogal’s direct DSP connection interested me. My X6 has a newer version than my 335i and supports direct USB connection with Playback via the Lightning cable and doesn’t require the AUX connection but it still works if I want to use my Oppo. Would it be better yet to bypass the AUX connection and have cables run to my center console while the car is taken apart anyway and make the Oppo line out connection directly to the Helix DSP’s analog inputs?

    I’ll add, once the car is moving, listening to music via the iPhone Y-Cable or the Oppo DAC line out to AUX sound the same and the convenience of head unit control is my typical choice.
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    A Refined Basshead blockrocker's Avatar
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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Quote Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
    I would think that using Spotify as a source would be the main sound-quality limiter - not the DA/AD converters being used, wouldn't it?

    Can most people actually hear the difference between different AD/DA converters without some super high-end system and/or measurements (assuming the source was exactly the same)?

    These are genuine questions as I'm not familiar with how much the AD/DA converters actually effect sound quality - or if most people can *really* hear the difference.

    Personally, for me, I'm not willing to lose the head-unit control of my system. I would never be happy with having to control things like volume, track switching, track searching/selection, etc from a non-headunit device. Just too "clunky" for me personally. I have a nice big 8.4" touchscreen in my car with full voice controls as well - it would be silly not to use it and instead use some external small-screen device connected by wires to control things - but that is just me and *my* preferences - everyone is different.

    All of that being said, with a DSP.3, I would think that a HEC USB add-on would provide the best possible quality - I think you could go wired from your phone directly to the DSP.3. They also sell a Bluetooth HEC add-on which would allow you to go directly from phone to Helix wirelessly via bluetooth.
    Yeah, you bring up a good point. I am also curious about having to use my phone for volume, track changes etc. I'd prefer to keep s many touch screen functions as I can, since I don't have any steering wheel controls set up at the moment. I'm definitely leaning to a hard wire of some kind, just need to flesh out some of the details.

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Your phone streaming Bluetooth from whatever service at 320 is all you'll ever need driving down the road. You won't notice much if any difference between that and high res in traffic or cruising down a highway. Don't forget that.

    Yes critical listening is important. But if you don't spend a lot of time sitting in your driveway jamming I would not pull my hair out worrying about those last kbps.

    Just plug into a quality dac (I use a muse) when parked. If you have a non pie Android or an iPhone your getting excellent quality wired.

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    Re: High Quality Signal Sources

    Quote Originally Posted by blockrocker View Post
    I was hoping to start a little discussion on signal sources other than headunits. I'm a little bit behind the curve with this stuff, since the last time I was into car audio seriously, 90% of today's options simply didn't exist for car audio applications. With so many options available now, I'm wondering what the best way of maximizing my SQ is. Audiogal has posted about her phone to dsp hookup in another thread, using lightning/hdmi and hdmi/toslink converters to essentially bypass the cd player. She seems to like it a lot, plus its a fairly inexpensive and high quality way of getting the most out of her gear.

    Dumdum has also been an advocate of the Topping D10 DAC, which also seems like a great way to improve the SQ for a slightly more expensive option (but still well priced). At the moment I am using my phone to bluetooth spotify to the headunit. Then I use the usb port to listen to my stored music. I know this is not my best SQ option, especially with a DSP.3. My cd player is a Kenwood ddx395, it does the trick but I am far from in love with it. My phone is a Samsung A8, which includes a headphone jack and USB-c plug. I have zero experience with any other source. So maybe people can share what their setup is in the car and what they like and don't like about it. Personally, I do most of my listening with Spotify, but would love to hear how you folks do it.

    What do you use as a music source? How do you integrate your phone into your car? What's the ideal way to get the best signal to the DSP? Is a 3.5mm jack to rca wire linking phone to dsp as good as usb-c to hdmi to toslink? Feel free to drop your 2 cents in, I'd love to learn more!
    Phone to usb DAC optical/coaxial out to DSP > phone headphone out to DSP > headunit rca out to DSP > phone headphone out to headunit rca out to DSP > phone Bluetooth to DSP > phone Bluetooth to headunit rca out to DSP.
    If you get noise in any cables, none of that applies.
    And, unless your sitting in your driveway, optical/coaxial is pointless, but we still want it.
    Anyone should feel free to correct any of that.

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