#11
Amen brother!
#12
This is just speculation, but if you look at home audio, the typical impedance is 8 ohms... however, you usually have very little ambient noise in your house. I think the move to 4 ohms in the auto sound industry was a simple way to get a little more output so you can hear the music above the road noise.
#13
Andy wrote about damping factor:Originally Posted by jtrosky
https://www.audiofrog.com/community/...of-a-factor-2/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
#14
No cons, but no pros necessarily either. "More power going in" isn't any advantage if the speaker can't use it... and if your speaker needs more power (especially in a free-air setup like a door), that's not necessarily a good speaker. I'd have lots of questions about it, and why I couldn't drive it to full output on the 4 ohm level of power. Of course, that also assumes we're talking about an otherwise-identical comparison - a 4 ohm speaker that left you wanting, so you bought the 2 ohm version... which doesn't really exist in the midbass world. My point is - "more power" has no intrinsic benefit.
You want the appropriate amount of power to drive the speaker to full excursion.
And if that's possible with, say, 50 watts at 4 ohms, why would you swap in a speaker that required 100 watts to do the same thing?
Same things with subwoofers - I hear people bragging all the time about how a sub can handle over 1000w - "that's impressive!"
No, it's not really. It's a big, fat, heavy high-mass winding that's increasing moving mass to the point where it NEEDS nearly 1000w just to get loud. If you could get the same excursion and output with a sub that only needs 200w - THAT's the more impressive subwoofer.
(just like I wonder all the time, how so many people today are totally OK with thinking they need a 2000w+ amplifier, upgraded alternator, extra batteries, etc... just to drive a couple subs - and apparently aren't bottoming them out! Tell me THAT doesn't raise questions about the most inefficient system ever...)
All that matters is what matters - that you are driving your speakers cleanly, and are getting full output out of them - that your amp (at whatever impedance) can drive them to full excursion. People focus on the stuff that doesn't matter - or worse, praise the stuff they don't understand (triple-stack magnet, anyone?) - a whole lot.
And I don't mean you, this is a great question to actually start a deep-dive into some real understanding.
#15
In my case, they actually *are* the exact same 6x9 midbass speakers - just in both 2-ohm and 4-ohm versions. With my system, the 6x9 midbass speakers are the "limiting" factor when it comes to overall output level. I have to bring everything else down to the max output level of the 6x9 midbass speakers. I just have a 6x75W amp. So, to me, it just makes sense to use a 2-ohm version of the speaker if available as it gives me more volume potential for the entire system since I can then get more volume from the 6x9. Why wouldn't I want to do that?No cons, but no pros necessarily either. "More power going in" isn't any advantage if the speaker can't use it... and if your speaker needs more power (especially in a free-air setup like a door), that's not necessarily a good speaker. I'd have lots of questions about it, and why I couldn't drive it to full output on the 4 ohm level of power. Of course, that also assumes we're talking about an otherwise-identical comparison - a 4 ohm speaker that left you wanting, so you bought the 2 ohm version... which doesn't really exist in the midbass world My point is - "more power" has no intrinsic benefit.
You want the appropriate amount of power to drive the speaker to full excursion.
And if that's possible with, say, 50 watts at 4 ohms, why would you swap in a speaker that required 100 watts to do the same thing?
Same things with subwoofers - I hear people bragging all the time about how a sub can handle over 1000w - "that's impressive!"
No, it's not really. It's a big, fat, heavy high-mass winding that's increasing moving mass to the point where it NEEDS nearly 1000w just to get loud. If you could get the same excursion and output with a sub that only needs 200w - THAT's the more impressive subwoofer.
(just like I wonder all the time, how so many people today are totally OK with thinking they need a 2000w+ amplifier, upgraded alternator, extra batteries, etc... just to drive a couple subs - and apparently aren't bottoming them out! Tell me THAT doesn't raise questions about the most inefficient system ever...
All that matters is what matters - that you are driving your speakers cleanly, and are getting full output out of them - that your amp (at whatever impedance) can drive them to full excursion. People focus on the stuff that doesn't matter - or worse, praise the stuff they don't understand (triple-stack magnet, anyone?) - a whole lot.
And I don't mean you, this is a great question to actually start a deep-dive into some real understanding.
#16
If you already have all this equipment, have the need for more power to the midbasses, and have the miracle option (that I can never seem to have when I'm in that boat) of the exact same speakers to get more power out of the amp - hell yes. You'll gain 3dB of midbass, potentially (unless your midbass is being swallowed acoustically - in which case you could add a theoretical 12dB of midbass and barely notice).
But if planning a system from scratch - I'm just saying - (and it's not usually a "midbass" thing, but there aren't usually midbass options like that) - some people actually opt for a subwoofer that NEEDS more power, because it has a heavy moving mass and stiff suspension and heavier windings that require a heavier magnet to produce decent BL...
I'm often scratching my head at what's kind of analogous to screwing 100w light bulb into a lamp vs a 14w LED that produces the same lumens. Sign me up for the LED.
#17
Let me clarify. Modern OEM and even fancy newer OEM integration amps like Helix V series and Audison offer tiny amplifiers with multiple channels that can drive 2 ohm loads. They do this at the expense of seriously limiting power supply capacity and delivering less sustained power per channel. In an SQ system this is not a problem. I will explain.
10 --> 15 years ago it was common for a monstrous amp to have a beefy fixed dual rail power supply and multiple channels capable of delivering a true XXX watts per channel into all channels continuous. While great on paper, this was totally unnecessary. That is unless you were building an SPL wagon this sheer amount of power went to waste 90% of the time. Mostly in the form of heat due to amplifier inefficiencies. Thus the huge heat sinks. But, in those days that is what marketing departments told you what you needed.
If you listen to music at 90dB or slightly higher you're consuming under 10W per channel. In rare instances you may want to crank it up louder. Newer amps have tracking power supplies that can direct power to channels that need it the most while others stay at a much more reasonable level. Modern power supplies have much greater power management. As a result there is far less wasted power. Amplifiers dissipate less power and can be made much smaller because they only need small heat sinks.
In addition, these modern amps don't boost voltage to the output stages using a split stage dual rail power supply. They can operate off of the vehicles line voltage. They deliver more power to a channel by driving lower impedance loads. But, they only need to do this in short bursts vs. sustained sinusoidal max output. An amp channel driving a 4 ohm load at 13.5V can deliver roughly 45W into a channel. It can deliver 90W into a 2 ohm load. If it has an on demand boost power supply it could deliver 120W --> 160W into that same 2 ohm channel. This is plenty of power if you don't need to listen to music at 120dB.
A modern SQ amp will not win you any SPL contests. But, will offer you enough power to enjoy you music in a reasonable package size. If you are confused about what I am saying then take a peek at my amp guts write-up on Bose factory supplied amplifiers. While not perfect, the system in my 2016 vehicle can get damn loud and deliver substantial bass using amps that are only as big as a few mobile phones stacked on top of each other. And, they do this by only running warm to the touch.
Technology has come a long way in the last 10 years.
Ge0
#18
No doubt it has, but you lost me at "Bose".
Just kidding. But I do think you are commenting on some interesting exceptions, interesting innovations... not so much (or not yet) trends. And also, others might even argue "they are doing it to utilize smaller, cheaper power supply sections". I agree that ultimately as we shift towards electric cars this is something - like class D - that probably needs to happen, and then needs to evolve to something good. But over the last 10 --> 15 years it's been a little different, in my opinion. And I go back further than that, really 25-30 years... it's why I mention class D.
It used to be that we all generally ran Class A/B amps, with switching power across those rails. Only class A holds the rail voltages full and constant without switching - and accordingly are less efficient. It used to be that paying $2/watt for a reputable brand was good - and when I got a $1/watt deal on some Alpine V12 amps in the 90's, I jumped on it - $400 for 400 watts? That was a steal.
Then came along class D (true 50% half wave switching per rail), and initially it was crap quality - but it was at least good enough that the distortion was low enough that it worked for subwoofers. And the benefit was that it was CHEAP.
It took years and years (and personally I'm STILL skeptical about any full-range class D claims) to get refined further...
...and still I see it as one of the things that caused the demise of the car audio industry through the '00s when I was managing a dealer. Every CES and SEMA was worse than the last, through this period. Why would anyone pay $400 for a 400watt amp, when they could buy a 400w class D amp for $100? So sales of high quality amps, the old class A/B stuff, really sunk. Dealerships dwindled. Around my area (Buffalo NY), our remote starter sales saved our local big shops from all closing - we sure couldn't keep the doors open from audio sales! And we were (still are, although I'm no longer involved) one of the big shops. Quality (with the exception of a very few elite brands, and even fewer mainstream brands) is NOT what it used to be.
I also feel like I've observed, over time, with the introduction of the smartphone and all that, or maybe it's something to do with millenials (don't send hate my way), but - people just aren't enthusiasts any more like they used to be. It's not just car audio, it's really everything. It's "good enough" mentality that people were also complaining about when we went from analog to CD... then CD to MP3... then MP3 to streaming... over a phone over a data connection over bluetooth... Convenience over quality. So yeah... most people might spend $100, but $400? $1000? Very few.
But I digress...
One of the reasons I mention all that however, is that the power supply section IS a major limiting factor of any amp. And I don't have empirical data to reference, but as the market pushes things cheaper - the industry responds, making things cheaper. Bare minimums are cheaper than building in buffers and breathing room. So just as i'm positive that there's [on average] less headroom available on today's amps than on the class A/B counterparts of yesterday, it's always been true that the closer you run an amp to it's limits, the less headroom you are making available. Sure, it'll make rated power at 2 ohms- and that will be more than the power you were getting at 4 ohms - but now you are operating the amp closer to it's actual rail voltage limits, and on a cheap amp you very well might start bumping your head.
So that's a 2 ohm consideration that I think is important.
That being said - there's a flip side:
I've been researching picking up some of these new-breed pocket-sized micro-amps for an install in my daily driver. It's ludicrous the power levels they put out (AD-1 amp dyno verified even). For $400 I can pick up a 3000w RMS amp. Now, I don't need or even WANT that kind of current draw - even at 80%+ efficiency. But for that price, I can run my 3 ohm W7, or my dual-6 ohm JBL GTi 12, and I'd STILL be needing to set the gains conservatively on that amp, to bring it down to the ~800w that I really want. That amp would basically be idling, giving me more power than most of my [non-SPL] subwoofer amps of the past.
And I apologize for keeping shifting from "midbass" to "subwoofers", but most of the same considerations are there - you can hear more distortion artifacts in the midbass range than you do with subwoofers, anyway.\
#19
I owned a shop 1995 --> 2005. I exited the business because it just wasn't profitable. I was only in the business part time. I was working a full time job as well. It was one or the other. I agree and disagree with you on many points listed above. While it would be fun to swap stories with you I won't do that here. It's off topic. We can bring that off line if you likeNo doubt it has, but you lost me at "Bose".
Just kidding. But I do think you are commenting on some interesting exceptions, interesting innovations... not so much (or not yet) trends. And also, others might even argue "they are doing it to utilize smaller, cheaper power supply sections". I agree that ultimately as we shift towards electric cars this is something - like class D - that probably needs to happen, and then needs to evolve to something good. But over the last 10 --> 15 years it's been a little different, in my opinion. And I go back further than that, really 25-30 years... it's why I mention class D.
It used to be that we all generally ran Class A/B amps, with switching power across those rails. Only class A holds the rail voltages full and constant without switching - and accordingly are less efficient. It used to be that paying $2/watt for a reputable brand was good - and when I got a $1/watt deal on some Alpine V12 amps in the 90's, I jumped on it - $400 for 400 watts? That was a steal.
Then came along class D (true 50% half wave switching per rail), and initially it was crap quality - but it was at least good enough that the distortion was low enough that it worked for subwoofers. And the benefit was that it was CHEAP.
It took years and years (and personally I'm STILL skeptical about any full-range class D claims) to get refined further...
...and still I see it as one of the things that caused the demise of the car audio industry through the '00s when I was managing a dealer. Every CES and SEMA was worse than the last, through this period. Why would anyone pay $400 for a 400watt amp, when they could buy a 400w class D amp for $100? So sales of high quality amps, the old class A/B stuff, really sunk. Dealerships dwindled. Around my area (Buffalo NY), our remote starter sales saved our local big shops from all closing - we sure couldn't keep the doors open from audio sales! And we were (still are, although I'm no longer involved) one of the big shops. Quality (with the exception of a very few elite brands, and even fewer mainstream brands) is NOT what it used to be.
I also feel like I've observed, over time, with the introduction of the smartphone and all that, or maybe it's something to do with millenials (don't send hate my way), but - people just aren't enthusiasts any more like they used to be. It's not just car audio, it's really everything. It's "good enough" mentality that people were also complaining about when we went from analog to CD... then CD to MP3... then MP3 to streaming... over a phone over a data connection over bluetooth... Convenience over quality. So yeah... most people might spend $100, but $400? $1000? Very few.
But I digress...
One of the reasons I mention all that however, is that the power supply section IS a major limiting factor of any amp. And I don't have empirical data to reference, but as the market pushes things cheaper - the industry responds, making things cheaper. Bare minimums are cheaper than building in buffers and breathing room. So just as i'm positive that there's [on average] less headroom available on today's amps than on the class A/B counterparts of yesterday, it's always been true that the closer you run an amp to it's limits, the less headroom you are making available. Sure, it'll make rated power at 2 ohms- and that will be more than the power you were getting at 4 ohms - but now you are operating the amp closer to it's actual rail voltage limits, and on a cheap amp you very well might start bumping your head.
So that's a 2 ohm consideration that I think is important.
That being said - there's a flip side:
I've been researching picking up some of these new-breed pocket-sized micro-amps for an install in my daily driver. It's ludicrous the power levels they put out (AD-1 amp dyno verified even). For $400 I can pick up a 3000w RMS amp. Now, I don't need or even WANT that kind of current draw - even at 80%+ efficiency. But for that price, I can run my 3 ohm W7, or my dual-6 ohm JBL GTi 12, and I'd STILL be needing to set the gains conservatively on that amp, to bring it down to the ~800w that I really want. That amp would basically be idling, giving me more power than most of my [non-SPL] subwoofer amps of the past.
And I apologize for keeping shifting from "midbass" to "subwoofers", but most of the same considerations are there - you can hear more distortion artifacts in the midbass range than you do with subwoofers, anyway.\.
My point about driving 2 ohm and even 1 ohm loads becoming more common was that electronics (semiconductors themselves and the subsequent circuit designs) have advanced significantly. Tracking power supplies that can adjust rail voltage to match incoming signal intensity. Multi-level class D amplifier designs with super low resistance output transistors switching at frequencies high enough for low distortion full range audio. Etc... This is not a huge sacrifice in quality. However, there is sacrifice over the old school class A/B stuff for us purists.
I have over $3K worth of decent quality Zapco amps sitting in storage. I would love to use them on my next build but do not want to give up the cargo area and spare tire in my daily driver to shoe-horn them in. Heck, I had to tear the entire third row out of the last vehicle that used them to be able to fit them in (refer back to my Durango build on DIY.....).
I don't believe amps such as the Helix V series bring that much compromise in sound quality. Hell, I'm even compelled to try the lower tier MATCH stuff. But, that's just me. I'm glad I don't need to run 0gage wire and numerous distribution blocks through my vehicle any more. I can drive all my speakers with a single 12 channel amp that is smaller than my old 500W sub amp. It's easier to package and conceal.
Ge0
#20
I'm on my phone so won't make my usual way-too-long post...
But first off - awesome, I'm sure it would be fun to trade war stories. It's one thing to be an enthusiast - both you and I I'm sure carry that common thread. It's another thing when you do get that behind-the-industry perspective. And yes - that's a whole different thread.
Mainly I'm responding because I'm chuckling that we're ALSO in the same boat with our own personal systems... 😆
I have two DLS amps in storage, and a Phoenix Gold EQ-215 in climate controlled storage (along with other goodies that I actually will use - my Focal Utopias and a few fun subs that I rotate).
And you know what? I downsized into a Civic Sport hatchback because I wanted a fun car again... And now I don't even like using hatch space for a sub. 😆
So - partly because I'm also just a curious audio geek - I'm seriously researching a pair of these new "micro amps" (please feel free to suggest some to check out - I'm looking for fan-free) to try out, tiny footprint micro amps. And I'm undecided but going with a miniDSP or the Dayton DSP. I'll even hide that guy up front.
In the long run I may ditch my spare and do a false floor, with a much more mid-grade sub -because I'm totally with you, I don't want to use up my hatch space. I actually use it. 😉
Damn, getting older sucks sometimes. 😆
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