Erin's 2006 Civic Sedan

[erinh]

With my HT overhaul and the winter season, I've really not been that 'in to' car audio lately. Actually, I spend 70% of my time listening to talk radio/podcasts. Still, there's been some new things released recently that I've been wanting to play around with if for no other reason than to just satisfy my own curiosity. This new SB Acoustic 5" version of the Satori piqued my interest. So, I figured why not. Got me thinking though that if I were to decide to use it I'd need a tweeter to mate to it. Went looking... Andy's AudioFrog stuff has piqued my interest so I wound up picking up a set of the GB15 (1.5" tweeter) which also was being sold for a fair price with the GB40 (4" mid). At this point, what's another mid... right?


Here's a comparison shot of the Kef currently in my car vs the AF 4" and the Satori 5":





That Kef is NO JOKE. It even makes the 5" satori look small.



Here's the 1.5" tweeter closer up:



And the 4" and 1.5":










Am I changing gear? Possibly. Why? Heck, because.
I don't chase driver swaps much with the intention on getting better sound as much as just trying new things, new install methods, etc and learning from it. That said, I never take steps backwards; mostly lateral steps with leveraged rationale. The concentric Kef obviously has it's benefits (namely, the point source aspect) but there are a few certain aspects about using them that concern me. One being: they're not exactly easy to replace. The cool thing about the 5" Satori is it's literally a drop in replacement for the Kef. The Satori has it's pros/cons as well but I think it's a good option to try: the 6.5" version has very, very good non-linear distortion so I figure this one will. This 5" version has great linearity even outside it's nominal passband (disregarding the surround edge resonance at about 1.6khz, resulting in a 6dB narrow Q dip which I'm not sure is audible and people seem to love their AudioTechnology drivers with the same issues ). I shopped 5" variants a few times in the past and never really found one I liked enough to swap the kefs for, but this one has promise. Heck, the screw holes even line up perfectly. So, from there it's just a matter of determining how I want to install the AF GB15 tweeter.


Also, I finally bought the Helix DSP Pro to run rear-fill again. I'm more excited about that than anything else.

[claydo]

I was floored at the beefiness of the kefs when you posted that same pic in the for sale threads.....I mean I had seen the kef in pics, but the side by side really is a jaw dropper!

[captainobvious]

Certainly interested in how the Audio Frog drivers perform for you, as well as the Satori. Good stuff.

[caraudiofab]

I read through a few pages here. Great build

[erinh]

Certainly interested in how the Audio Frog drivers perform for you, as well as the Satori. Good stuff.

Yea. When I decided to get the 5" I knew I needed a tweeter that could easily handle a 2khz crossover (or in that ballpark), which meant a 3/4" dome was pretty much out of the question. LOL.

I remembered Andy had a 1.5" tweeter so I started looking for that off the bat. Found a set used and figured it's worth a shot. I can say they are definitely built like tanks. The sensitivity is 92dB @ 2.83v/1m which is pretty solid; that means I have room to shape the response without losing top end *if needed*. The Fs is about 1150hz, via a quick impedance sweep. But I don't think that necessarily means I have to stick to the 2*Fs rule. The size of them provides enough surface area that the Fs not being 800hz doesn't concern me terribly (and concurrently, the VC is likely a bit larger than most of the 1" tweeters I've used).

I will do some basic tests on these before I run them in the car, though. HD and FR polars. Being larger than most tweeters they become directive lower in frequency but if they maintain the same general shape that's better than having a tweeter that gets ragged above beaming. I went back and looked at some Illuminator offerings and was surprised at how directive they are above 8khz. The 1" RR is one of the poorer performers compared to the 1" dome in this regard: http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/r3004-602000.pdf vs http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-602000.pdf.

[SouthSyde]

Cant wait for the test of the Satori...

[erinh]

Installation: currently trying to decide how I want to go about this. The easiest option is to essentially make a baffle that attaches to the mid's mounting point and extends out to where the sail panel is and allows the tweeter to install in there. The pro here is a) it saves me from having to do more custom work and b) it keeps the tweeter from getting hit by the elements (rain) when the doors are opened up since the tweeter isn't fabricated to the door panel itself.

That said, cosmetically I don't know how I feel about it. I can make it look good with some materials and/or paint I know. Acoustically, there are some pros/cons here as well. But that can be said for the other options I'm considering as well. Since you gotta start somewhere, so I started last night on mocking up some baffles for this install option just to get an idea of how it would look and what the aiming would be. Here's a couple crappy cell phone pictures I snapped.









My other option is to rebuild the pillars entirely which affords me the opportunity to work on aiming. Aiming is really a trade-off game. Aim them cross firing reduces near side intensity issues that I've found are practically impossible to really tune out (while I can adjust the impulse in time and intensity, I have never really felt that solved the issue entirely). What I typically find, in my car and others, is a skewed stage where the near side is closer to the listener than the far side. Imagine if you drew a line of where the stage begins from left to right. Instead of being straight across the dash from one speaker to the other, the line would start maybe 1 foot in front of you on the left and it would be 2 feet in front of you on the right. (If anyone needs help understanding what I mean, I can draw a quick picture. Just lmk.)
So, toeing in the speakers helps to mechanically remedy that via time/intensity trading (this is how most horn type speakers are set up in a conventional listening room, for a similar reason).

BUT, the more off-axis you place the speakers - firing in front of you rather than toward you - to remedy this near side bias, the more opposite side reflections you get which hurt the sense of 'space' because it increases cross-talk. The less you are able to pin-point images the more diffuse the system likely is and that, IME, really causes your sense of space to suffer.

Basically, it's a big game of trade-offs. This is part of the learning curve, though. As I build and tune, build and tune, I learn these things through experience, then find information that explains it (ie; great information on ASW vs IACC (width vs cross-talk, essentially) helps make sense of some of this). So, what I'll have to do is play around with some different methods of aiming. Maybe this time aim the left-side speakers more straight; toward my left ear, rather than toward the center of the car like my current install. And keep the right mid where it is, but maybe angle it back a touch so there's less high-frequency content bouncing off my driver's side window causing me issues. Or maybe do the complete opposite: aim the left side more off-axis toward the right side of the car. Ultimately it's just an exercise in picking the lesser of evils.


Aaaaaaaanyway, I though I'd share some of the 'method to the madness'. Because unfortunately, I feel a rebuild of the pillars coming on. Good thing I already have a spare set.

[BigAl205]

Mmmmm...tweeter cleavage

[captainobvious]

Would you pull them in as close together as possible on the permanent solution, or keep some separation as they show currently in the mock up ? I think visually it works fine. You'll just need to be a little creative with your shaping/filler to get a nice end look.

[erinh]

Yea, if you notice on the first picture I marked the CTC distance as 130mm. That's the best I can do for this current install option, which is about 2640hz (full wave). If I rebuild the pillars I'd like to get that number higher but the best I could do is about 3000hz (CTC minimal spacing of about 4.5"). That's what I'd shoot for to get the lobing frequency higher, but also, I couldn't afford any additional space if I for some reason wanted it because, as it is, I'll already have a hard enough time integrating this combo in a vertical configuration in the pillar.

I agree, it probably will look fine once said and done. That's kind of why I'm 'vetting' this option before deciding to rebuild the pillars entirely. The one thing I don't particularly like about tweeters where they'd be here is it increases width but it's a real pseudo-sense of width. That said, it's just another trade-off for this option, just like any other install I'd go with would have. If I went with the pillars that would create more potential for comb-filtering off the side glass, though... the distance from tweeter to side glass there would be about 4-5 inches, which equates to the first comb null at about 2700-3375hz and then the combing peak/null patterns continues on up. Not tuning that out. Initially you think, "well the mid would face the same issue" ... but that frequency range is outside of the mid's passband (more than likely the mid will be crossed around 2khz). And worse, this is where the tweeter is still practically omnidirectional. So, in this regard you deal with more combing issues from the tweeter/left side window with a vertical stacked pillar arrangement than you would if you mounted tweeter close to the left side window itself like I would with this 'sail panel' type install location; essentially moving the comb up to well above 10khz (where, by then, it would be par for the course).

Additionally, as far as width/space goes the rear-fill will help immensely.

I'm not really in a hurry to knock this out. As long as I have something completed with enough time to get a good tune for Jason's meet, I'm fine.