help me understand this.....phase vs polarity

I had a discussion with a fellow member about phase, and polarity yesterday. We were discussing 180° phase shifts, and how it sounded different in my car than polarity swaps. He said they were identical, I didn't believe it because they sound totally different in my car. I explained that when installing my midbasses that I had to have the polarity right in order to get bass, when the polarity was opposite, I got cancellation, but after getting polarity correct, I could shift phase 180° and not get cancellation. It would just "detach" the sound from the drivers, and reduce localization. He insisted they were one and the same, and I had no arhuement to offer other than they sound different. After our discussion, I pictured a sine wave, and started to se where he was coming from.....holy shit that makes sense, but I still new the sound was different. That lead to a Google search, and this.........

http://totalproaudio.stevebunting.co...e-or-polarity/

Now this told me I was correct with my origional statement, and told me why they sounded different......but, I still don't have my head around explaining to someone the difference between the two. Now I probably should have gotten this from the link above, but its giving my head fits, I realize that they look the same in a sine wave, but the phase comes from delay.......but I can't put it together.......any of you guys care to break it down in layman's terms for me? Why no cancellation when it looks the same on an o-scope? I need some help with this!

How did you shift the phase 180 degrees?

With the dsp in my head unit......

Methinks your headunit is inverting polarity also..... Not shifting phase.

Most dsp's flip polarity, even if phase is mentioned...

Is it correct to say?:

Polarity flips the entire signal ( frequency independent ) without time being a factor.
Phaseshift is a shift in time and is frequency dependent.( because every frequency has a different wavelength )

http://totalproaudio.stevebunting.co...e-or-polarity/

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calcula...delayphase.htm

Here's more to read....

I was thinking about this stuff the other day, I had to stop because I shorted out my last remaining brain cell. Throw time alignment in the mix if you want some extra fun.

I was needing some input, I don't think my head unit is flipping polarity, because it sounds way different than a manual polarity swap......with a manaul polarity swap
I get major cancellation, when switching phase on my headunit....no cancellation. Anyways, I still couldn't explain the difference between 180° phase shift, and a polarity swap......other than the way they wind up looking the same on a sine......phase by delay, polarity by inversion.....

What do you want to achieve? Or just curiousity?

Im just having a hard time getting my head around them looking the same in a sine wave yet being and sounding different.......just seeking a better understanding.

Music is not a sinewave... ;)

Phase shift is not necessarily T/A. But T/A causes a phase shift. Any change in T/A will shift different frequencies at varying degrees depending on the amount of delay and the length of the wave. Whereas polarity swap inverts the entire signal 180degrees but causes no shift across the time table.


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Swapping polarity on the processor changes it before processing (input), but swapping it at the speakers is post-processing (output). There's your sound difference.

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Originally Posted by AL9000

Swapping polarity on the processor changes it before processing (input), but swapping it at the speakers is post-processing (output). There's your sound difference.

Sent from my fingers to your brain via Tapatalk 2

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That.

It's easier to do/see on a unit that lets you play with open blocks so you can move shit around.

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Originally Posted by AL9000

Swapping polarity on the processor changes it before processing (input), but swapping it at the speakers is post-processing (output). There's your sound difference.

Sent from my fingers to your brain via Tapatalk 2

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So, your saying that the difference in sound is because of the t/a applied?........that's what is avoiding the cancellation I got when swapping the polarity at the speaker? It is a drastic difference between what the processor/ head unit calls phase, and physically changing the polarity. So the sound should remain the same if I swap the polarity at the speaker, and set the phase to normal? As long as my t/a settings are applied?

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Originally Posted by chad

That.

It's easier to do/see on a unit that lets you play with open blocks so you can move shit around.

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Like the Miketta Mind Map...

A German dude named Frank Miketta created such a DSP with full manual configuration... Later this device became more limited and was baptised 6to8 iirc..






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My shure P4800 does it, as does the BSS soundweb... those are affordable used... MANY processors allow you to build in blocks with drag and drop and line draw patching.

Anybody mind posting a screenshot of these blocks y'all speak of?

Also, this thread needs a much less ambiguous title, I keep skimming over it.


Sent from my Springfield XD with love!

Attachment 1280

Ok, i've heard that the 6to8 can be hacked so it becomes the mindmap again... I'm going to contact Frank Miketta for this and see if he can help me with this...

If so, a whole new world opens for the diy scene with a "limited" 6to8 DSP....

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Originally Posted by Fricasseekid

Also, this thread needs a much less ambiguous title, I keep skimming over it.

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Done

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Originally Posted by WOOSEY

Attachment 1280

Ok, i've heard that the 6to8 can be hacked so it becomes the mindmap again... I'm going to contact Frank Miketta for this and see if he can help me with this...

If so, a whole new world opens for the diy scene with a "limited" 6to8 DSP....

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That would be cool. Keep me informed

Waka flaka?!

I have no idea what I'm looking at. I'll keep my user friendly MiniDSP interface.


Sent from my Springfield XD with love!

I'm on to something right now... I believe the Purepath Studio software from Texas instruments is all i need.... Gotta check that, and test it... I believe the miniDSP is also hackable with this program..

Fric, it's like a puzzle, you can combine all sorts of filters, add-ons and define the signalpath of the dsp... WARNING!! you can also destroy it.. so they say...

first some more research..

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Originally Posted by WOOSEY

WARNING!! you can also destroy it.. so they say...

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As long as there's fire involved, I'm all in :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fricasseekid

Anybody mind posting a screenshot of these blocks y'all speak of?

Also, this thread needs a much less ambiguous title, I keep skimming over it.


Sent from my Springfield XD with love!

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If I remember tomorrow night.

Ok I got access to the Texas instruments website, and I'm downloading the Purepath software right now...

Gotta figure out some things first and everything I find will be posted! ( or I wait and make a new thread if I get lucky...

I just received an E-mail from Mr. Miketta:

It's not possible anymore to get the 6to8 "back to basic" with the TI development software... Damn.... Would have been nice...